01-11-2003 03:30									#31
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The English don't massively support anything. It's not in our nature.

We're an old and decadent people, so we'd rather just take the piss, if that's OK?

	01-11-2003 05:08									#32
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Look, the EU in its current guise is f*cked up, corrupt and bureaucratically bloated with Giscard D'Estaing (sp?) seemingly inventing the constitution as he goes along - why the hell would we want to get in any deeper than we are already?

Hey it's a great idea on paper, but I'd rather that the Krauts and Frogs sort the mess out first and when it is all cleaned up and pristine-like - then invite us!

	01-11-2003 05:31									#33
	Re: The Brits ought to massively support the European Constitution Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Well, real pro-Europe Brits already do. But the throngs of anti-Europe Brits should really love the constitution as well, because it allows at last a country to leave the EU if it wants.

Didn't Virginia technically have the right to leave the Union if it wanted?

Look how that turned out (not that I'm complaining).

If the Brits don't want to risk surrenduring their national sovereignty, to them.

	01-11-2003 05:32									#34
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quote: Government ownership of key industries by several member states (France's ownership of Renault and Volkswagon is something like 25% owned by one of the German states just to name two examples) clearly puts most of the EU into the Socialist catagory. In poly sci a Socialist state has government ownership of key industries and/or major means of production while the rest of the economy remains privitized.

The French government have been privatising Renault since 1994. They now only 44% of the company. And what about Peugeot/Citroen? It's a gross exaggeration to suggest that key industries are government owned. The vast majority of the EU's GDP comes from private enterprise.

The new EU members had to privatise lots of stuff in order to qualify for membership. EU rules forbid the nationalisation of failing industries (to preserve competition) and prevent governments from having controlling percentages of private companies. It also works tirelessly to ensure that capital can flow freely within Europe. What do you think the single currency is for? That's why your claim of

"ever more agregious regulations upon them, ever more socialized this and that, ever less free market capitalism & privite ownership, and ever higher taxes to pay for all that socialist nonsense."

is nonsense.

quote: Government ownership of railways? Ckeck. Government owner ship of telcoms? Check. Government ownership or undue control over Autos, steel, and other industrial areas? Check.

Railways? Big deal. They own the roads too. And unless I'm mistaken, it's the same in America. Telecoms is still partly state-owned, but don't kid yourself that it's moving anywhere but towards privatisation, largely thanks to the EU. The EU loves private telecoms, but the states are still putting up resistance. Cars and steel are hardly state-owned at all.

quote: Face it. Many EU member states are socialist and not capitalist.

The character of EU state-owned industries is that of islands in a sea of private capital. And the tide is rising.

	01-11-2003 05:53									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin In poly sci a Socialist state has government ownership of key industries and/or major means of production while the rest of the economy remains privitized.

I don't know where you studied political sciences, but in my book, a "socialist" economy is an economy where there is no private property over production means, except for individual businesses. A "socialist" economy is a transition period that aims to get to the "communist" economy.

What you describe happening in the EU is what the Germans call "social market economy" (soziale Marktwirtschaft). Or a social-democratic economy if you want. Such economy doesn't deny private property over production means, quite the contrary, but considers the State has a role in articulating and managing the general interest.

	01-11-2003 05:54									#36
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quote: The character of EU state-owned industries is that of islands in a sea of private capital. And the tide is rising.

This is so sadly true

	01-11-2003 06:05									#37
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Ok, Sandman. You can feel free to make up your own definitions but I'll stick with the real definitions they tech at reputable Universities. In socialist countries the majority of the economy is privitely owned! Do you understand the difference between asocialist and a communist system?

	01-11-2003 06:08									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I don't know where you studied political sciences, but in my book, a "socialist" economy is an economy where there is no private property over production means, except for individual businesses. A "socialist" economy is a transition period that aims to get to the "communist" economy.

In my poly sci classes the difining feature was the degree to which the government owned or controlled the means of production.

quote: What you describe happening in the EU is what the Germans call "social market economy" (soziale Marktwirtschaft). Or a social-democratic economy if you want. Such economy doesn't deny private property over production means, quite the contrary, but considers the State has a role in articulating and managing the general interest.

Hmm, we seem to be talking about the same thing but calling it two different names. Of course that wouldn't be the first time different sides of the pond had different names for the same thing.

	01-11-2003 06:13									#39
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You're talking about the social democrat model Oerdin.
In Europe Socialism means Social Democracy.

	01-11-2003 06:14									#40
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Some industries are just too important to let go.

French government saved Renault and USA govt saved Chrysler.

Same thing.

	01-11-2003 06:15									#41
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It's not the same because the US government only loaned money to Chrsyler while the French government took ownership of Renault.

	01-11-2003 06:23									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin It's not the same because the US government only loaned money to Chrsyler while the French government took ownership of Renault.

In 1945, as a punishment because the Renault family cooperated closely with the Germans during the war. As Sandman already told, Peugeot and Citroën (the main competitors to Renault on the French market) have never been nationalized, and such nationalization has never been on the agenda AFAIK.

	01-11-2003 06:37									#43
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quote: Ok, Sandman. You can feel free to make up your own definitions but I'll stick with the real definitions they tech at reputable Universities. In socialist countries the majority of the economy is privitely owned! Do you understand the difference between asocialist and a communist system?

Well, if we're using Marxist terminology then a socialist system is one where the majority of the economy is controlled by the state. A communist one would have no state.

Even using non-Marxist terminology, your idea that the EU is socialist is pretty much unsustainable.

"Government ownership of key industries".

They don't own cars or steel. And even if there are a few remaining dribbles of state ownership in these industries, it's not clear that these can be considered 'key' industries. I mean, what's so 'key' about them? The European economy doesn't revolve around them, like a one-product developing nation. If they ceased to be viable, it would be bad, but it wouldn't destroy us in the same that oil ceasing to be valuable would destroy Saudi Arabia.

	01-11-2003 18:25									#44
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Don't forget to honor the sacred right to bear arms. If your constitiution doesn't include such a guarentee then it's a farce and need not be heeded.

	01-11-2003 20:31									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Don't forget to honor the sacred right to bear arms.

Impossible !
Our constitution explicitely states that "Europe is a continent that has brought forth civilisation; that its inhabitants, arriving in successive waves from earliest times, have gradually developed the values underlying humanism: equality of persons, freedom, respect for reason". How can you expect it to support the Afghan-style right to bear arms?

Now, if the constitution begun by "Europe is a Barbaric continent and we sure intend to continue being so", then you'd be talking

	02-11-2003 01:32									#46
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quote: Many EU member states are socialist and not capitalist.

Bzzzt! Wrong. EU member states are distinctly capitalist.

Spiffor is totally correct, socialism means government ownership of all major industries, with the only private buisnesses being small shops, etc. And yes, this is coming from someone with a Poly Sci B.A. .

	02-11-2003 02:17									#47
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An Apolyton Sci B.A. degree? I could never tell.

	02-11-2003 02:25									#48
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Oerdin's a funny guy...

"Volkswagon is something like 25% owned by one of the German states just to name two examples"

And how many more examples in germany can you name, hmm? Who owns BMW? Daimler? SAP? Aldi? Etc etc.

"Government owner ship of telcoms? Check."

Of parts of the former monopolies.

"Government ownership or undue control over Autos, steel, and other industrial areas? Check."

Unsubstantiated bollocks.

Last edited by HershOstropoler on 02-11-2003 at 02:31

	02-11-2003 02:26									#49
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Hersh - pay attention, will you?

	02-11-2003 02:27									#50
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quote: An Apolyton Sci B.A. degree?

That's right, I studied Apolyton for years .

quote: Face it. Many EU member states are socialist and not capitalist.

You know with that deadpan delivery, I almost thought you were serious for a second .

	02-11-2003 04:32									#51
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Forget it

Brits are with us not you

	02-11-2003 04:47									#52
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I want to know what we are paying politicians for. I pay them to read international treaties for me, reach reasoned decisions and then vote on them. If they don't want the job when it becomes difficult, or if they feel that any decision is not going to go their way, then I don't see why they should be paid.

	02-11-2003 04:52									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Brits are with us not you

That's precisely why I want them to approve the constitution, because it'll allow them to leave much more easily than before

	02-11-2003 21:35									#54
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Some industries are just too important to let go. French government saved Renault and USA govt saved Chrysler. Same thing.

Italian Government is burning FIAT to the ground

Saluti

	03-11-2003 03:05									#55
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Just kidding

FIAT is as good as any other european car giant, granted they did have quite a few misses. Multipla comes to mind, Stilo didn't sell that good either as far as I know.

In my opinion FIAT has been overemphasizing design in the last decade or so and neglecting prices and the technical side of the cars. At least here (Croatia) only lately they shook off the "carisma" of total unreliability. New Punto was one of the best sellers here.

I don't know why they failed in other countries though.

What do you mean by government burning it to the ground? I was getting impression they are selling off auxilary parts and if it still doesn't break even, govt will jump in. Granted, I wasn't following closely lately.

	03-11-2003 03:18									#56
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in greece fiat has the cheapest spares. it'd be a shame if they'd close down, but i think this is not so imminent.

	03-11-2003 03:30									#57
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if they close it down, will you be back to riding donkeys?

	03-11-2003 03:33									#58
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could you first tell me where you found the only PC in Croatia?
and how much for you sister

	03-11-2003 03:35									#59
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we imported a supercomuputer from greece

thanks

	03-11-2003 03:39									#60
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good money on lost causes