31-10-2003 21:26									#1
	The Brits ought to massively support the European Constitution Put an end to popups!

Well, real pro-Europe Brits already do. But the throngs of anti-Europe Brits should really love the constitution as well, because it allows at last a country to leave the EU if it wants.

quote: Article 59: Voluntary withdrawal from the Union Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the European Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention; the European Council shall examine that notification. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council of Ministers, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament. The representative of the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in Council of Ministers or European Council discussions or decisions concerning it. The Constitution shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, decides to extend this period. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to re-join, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 57 [the normal procedure to join the Union].

So, it looks lovely doesn't it? Why do you keep harassing your pro-constitution politicians when this constitution can so obviously serve the interest of the anti-Europeans?

	31-10-2003 21:28									#2
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Saying you can do something and actually doing it are vastly different things.

	31-10-2003 21:31									#3
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What, and you think if that clause wasn't in, it would actually make a difference to a country decising whether to stay or leave?

	31-10-2003 21:40									#4
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I know it makes sense. I know it's a tidying up exercise to bring all the treaties under one roof. I know it will make things a lot clearer (hopefully) and I know the UK's been a big winner at negotiations cause AFAIK, none of our red lines have been crossed.

But ask the average Daily Mail reader in middle England and the moment they hear the word Europe used in anyway that doesn't mean cheap vacations or booze and their heads explode. Throw in hints about doing something slightly mean to the Queen and they'll claw out your eyes. I was shocked when a friend of mine went into a rant when he heard the Queen might have her position as head of the armed forces altered. Mainly because
A) he's a left wing atheist,
B) the news story didn't actually say anything of the sort and
C) despite being an intelligent guy he listed off the most absurd anti-EU propaganda.

Some people, who've honestly sat down and thought through the issues involved and decided against the EU I can respect. Most people, I can't.

	31-10-2003 21:47									#5
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Can you expell countries from the EU?

	31-10-2003 21:55									#6
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Chegitz:
No, but you can remove their rights as members

quote: Article 58: Suspension of Union membership rights On a reasoned proposal by one third of the Member States, by the European Parliament or by the Commission, the Council of Ministers, acting by a majority of four fifths of its members after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament, may adopt a European decision determining that there is a clear risk of a serious breach by a Member State of the values mentioned in Article 2 [the article stating the values of the European Union]. Before making such a determination, the Council of Ministers shall hear the Member State in question and, acting in accordance with the same procedure, may address recommendations to that State. The Council of Ministers shall regularly verify that the grounds on which such a determination was made continue to apply. The European Council, acting by unanimity on a proposal by one third of the Member States or by the Commission and after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament, may adopt a European decision determining the existence of a serious and persistent breach by a Member State of the values mentioned in Article 2, after inviting the Member State in question to submit its observations. Where a determination under paragraph 2 has been made, the Council of Ministers, acting by a qualified majority, may adopt a European decision suspending certain of the rights deriving from the application of the Constitution to the Member State in question, including the voting rights of that Member State in the Council of Ministers. In so doing, the Council of Ministers shall take into account the possible consequences of such a suspension on the rights and obligations of natural and legal persons. That Member State shall in any case continue to be bound by its obligations under the Constitution. The Council of Ministers, acting by a qualified majority, may subsequently adopt a European decision varying or revoking measures taken under paragraph 3 in response to changes in the situation which led to their being imposed. For the purposes of this Article, the Council of Ministers shall act without taking into account the vote of the Member State in question. Abstentions by members present in person or represented shall not prevent the adoption of decisions referred to in paragraph 2. This paragraph shall also apply in the event of voting rights being suspended pursuant to paragraph 3. For the purposes of paragraphs 1 and 2, the European Parliament shall act by a two-thirds majority of the votes cast, representing the majority of its Members.

	31-10-2003 21:57									#7
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Saying you can do something and actually doing it are vastly different things.

Yep, but the procedure stated here is quite easy in comparison to what a non-procedure would be. Pretty much any country could leave the EU without a legal headache and without ruining its relationship with its neighbours for decades now.

The Brits sure should do so

	31-10-2003 21:57									#8
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The UK independence party are holding a talk near me called 'The EU constitution, the end of freedom?'. Im pretty sure which side of the line they fall on. Im thinking of going because its always a good laugh to watch the right wing nut jobs at it.

	31-10-2003 21:58									#9
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Spiffy, where are you getting this stuff from?

	31-10-2003 22:05									#10
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http://european-convention.eu.int/d...v00850.en03.pdf

It's a 265 pages massive document, but only the 60-70 first are interesting for the layman. I read them (in French) in less than an hour.

	31-10-2003 22:06									#11
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Can you expell countries from the EU?

Yeah. France and Germany are blatantly violating the stability pact and need to be punished.

	31-10-2003 22:08									#12
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Fortunately, the stability pact is not a core value of the EU

(otherwise, we'd all be criminals at some point or other)

	31-10-2003 22:25									#13
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Yeah. France and Germany are blatantly violating the stability pact and need to be punished.

This falls under the 1t pillar and carries with it economic consequences which can be delivered by the commission I think.
Still there's a divide inside the EU in wether the stability pact should get more flexible.
There are conutries in favor of it (like italy) and countries definitely against (like holland)

	31-10-2003 23:06									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor http://european-convention.eu.int/d...v00850.en03.pdf It's a 265 pages massive document, but only the 60-70 first are interesting for the layman. I read them (in French) in less than an hour.

You have a 265 page Constitution!?! How is anyone supposed to learn that?

	31-10-2003 23:12									#15
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Har har. Try reading a 1,000 page megabrick full of european court decisions. This is a piece of cake in comparison.

	31-10-2003 23:14									#16
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Not that I have read it, of course.

	31-10-2003 23:24									#17
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You have a 265 page Constitution!?! How is anyone supposed to learn that?

Only experts are supposed to learn that, because the constitution is not a simple declaration of principles (the 2 pages long preamble does this job), but is a complete law document, which includes processes (and gawd there are many) and task repartition.

The preamble is what the Convention's presient hopes to be taught at school. Unfortunately, it is written in the exact same legalese style as European law

	31-10-2003 23:31									#18
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 This falls under the 1t pillar and carries with it economic consequences which can be delivered by the commission I think. Still there's a divide inside the EU in wether the stability pact should get more flexible. There are conutries in favor of it (like italy) and countries definitely against (like holland)

The stability pact, IMVHO, should not be more flexible, but more explicit. It is clear that a country showing a 2% deficit when the economy grows an healthy 3.5% will have problems in meeting the 3% limit when the economy weaken badly à 0.2%. It was implicit that the Commission should have move sooner, that is when the circumstances would have made corrective action easier. Since it has not, this necessity must be explicited.

	31-10-2003 23:33									#19
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Thanks for linking the constitution spiff. Its an interesting read.

	31-10-2003 23:34									#20
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Actually, countries are allowed to have a higher deficit than 3%. In a normal negative growth, such authorization can be given by the European Commission. And in an extreme negative growth (can't remember the exact figure), this authorization is automatically given.

	31-10-2003 23:38									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor negative growth

Is that better than a decrease ?

A negative loan would be a borrowing and negative love would be hatred.

	01-11-2003 00:56									#22
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT Is that better than a decrease ?

That's actually a recession, if you want to go technical. But since "recession" can also mean "weak growth" in everyday language, I preferred to use obvious words.

	01-11-2003 01:00									#23
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Negative growth and extreme negative growth = our very own doublespeak.

	01-11-2003 01:20									#24
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And then of course there's the problem of how each country itself defines that its economy has entered "recession". For Germany I think it is two consecutive trimesters in negative growth? But I may be wrong.

	01-11-2003 01:29									#25
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You can already withdraw from the Union any time you want. You just have to declare you are doing so. BTW I fail to see how formalizing this ability in any way addresses the main concerns which most anti-Federalized Europe (most of them aren't anti-Europe they just don't want foreigners forcing laws on them) Brits have. They are afraid the French & Germans will team up to force ever more agregious regulations upon them, ever more socialized this and that, ever less free market capitalism & privite ownership, and ever higher taxes to pay for all that socialist nonsense.

Does the new constitution make it easier for the Brits to defend themselves from these problems? No, it does not. In fact it makes it even harder for them to do so.

	01-11-2003 01:41									#26
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It'll go through eventually, however much the Murdoch papers rant and rave.

quote: You can already withdraw from the Union any time you want. You just have to declare you are doing so. BTW I fail to see how formalizing this ability in any way addresses the main concerns which most anti-Federalized Europe (most of them aren't anti-Europe they just don't want foreigners forcing laws on them) Brits have. They are afraid the French & Germans will team up to force ever more agregious regulations upon them, ever more socialized this and that, ever less free market capitalism & privite ownership, and ever higher taxes to pay for all that socialist nonsense.

Wrong on two counts. Firstly, they're concerned about loss of sovereignty and associated nationalist issues, rather than economic stuff. Secondly, the EU is capitalist as hell.

	01-11-2003 02:07									#27
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Government ownership of key industries by several member states (France's ownership of Renault and Volkswagon is something like 25% owned by one of the German states just to name two examples) clearly puts most of the EU into the Socialist catagory. In poly sci a Socialist state has government ownership of key industries and/or major means of production while the rest of the economy remains privitized.

Government ownership of railways? Ckeck. Government owner ship of telcoms? Check.
Government ownership or undue control over Autos, steel, and other industrial areas? Check.

Face it. Many EU member states are socialist and not capitalist.

	01-11-2003 02:10									#28
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BTW If magazines like the Economist are to be trusted, and I do trust them, the anti-Frederal Europe crowd is afraid of the lose of soveignty because it will lead to an unaccountable foreign government having control over every day life, economic or other wise.

I think their fears are over blown but the fact remains that Spiffor's reasoning as to why they should switch to supporting the new EU Constitution doesn't fly because it doesn't address these people's core concerns.

	01-11-2003 02:12									#29
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quote: Face it. Many EU member states are socialist and not capitalist.

You say that like its a bad thing.

	01-11-2003 02:54									#30
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It has it's pluses and minuses; whither it's good or bad depends upon what you are aiming to achieve. The man point of that paragraph was to illistrate to Sandman that Europe was indeed socialist and that he was mistaken.