01-11-2003 07:47									#1
	Trading for resources problem Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I was recently playing a game where I discovered Steam Power earlier than my opponents, and unfortunately neither had coal in my territory nor any that I could easily access. A trading partner had two Coal deep in his territory. However, he did not offer Coal for trade (presumably because he hadn't 'discovered' it yet.)

So I gifted him with Steam Power. Still not offering Coal. Went out of the dialogue screen, re-entered it and still no Coal. And by next turn - no Coal, but he and one of my enemies (with no Coal in her territory) were both building railroads!

So my question - what am I doing wrong? At what point does the resource become 'available' to trade?

	01-11-2003 09:46									#2
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For one, ai will NEVER trade a recource if they only have one of it. Also, if they have more than one of a recource they will traded it off to another AI quickly. Also, you might not have seen the coal the other AI had, it is often under cities. press CTRL SHIFT M for a better look.

Should you choose to reload i would advise preventing the AI from getting steam for as long as possible, and use cavalry to take coal from an enemy that does not yet have nationalism,

	01-11-2003 10:18									#3
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Seizing the coal wasn't really an option - I'm not militarily strong.

I did see two Coal (there may have been more) so there should have been *at least* one available for trade.

	02-11-2003 23:03									#4
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Reload, go for the coal, don't make any prisoners. That's the catch.

	03-11-2003 01:29									#5
	Remove this text

There's bound to be more... somewhere.

	03-11-2003 17:20									#6
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Trading for RESOURCES???? The AI will actually do that?? I tried once, for coal too I believe. AI would've taken the 3 techs I had, 32 gpt and 1200 g for coal...

And, no doubt, would've declared war at the end of 2 turns too.

Needless to say I just rounded up some troops and helped myself to some coal. They should learn to play nicer. But I've never gotten a reasonable deal from the AI for any resource I've wanted. But, then again, I could have 14 extra horses and wouldn't trade them either...

	03-11-2003 18:02									#7
	Increase Your PM Length

geniemalin, the AI can't trade you a resource it can't see. And since it is impossible to make deals like 'I give you steam now and you give me coal later' with the AI you're screwed. Unless you can take the resource by force(in wich case, the AI is screwed )

I find that the prices the AI will demand for techs/lux/resources are often so high that war will be much cheaper.

	04-11-2003 07:25									#8
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There could be a few things here - as soon as you gave the civ Steam Engine they see the Coal and can use/trade it. If it appeared in their side of the negotiations screen under Resources, then they could trade it. If it appeared ghosted out, then they have it, but you do not have a trade route to them, which is set up with roads or sea routes through harbours.

If it did not appear in their negotiations screen then they do not have enough coal connecterd via roads to their cities to trade, and, as has been said already, an AI will never trade away its only source of a resource/luxury.

This sounds to me like your ally did not have the Coals hooked up, but when you gave him/her Steam Engine he/she bought Coal off of someone else and started on RRs next turn. As to the enemy building RRs, either it was independent of all this or your ally traded them Steam Engine.

	04-11-2003 07:28									#9
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I agree with MWIA - it probably wasn't hooked up. If it was, congratulations; you've found a bug.

	10-11-2003 22:06									#10
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Absolutely positively definitely hooked up.

And another nice little bug - in a game as the Vikings England didn't have Astronomy (I negotiated with them that turn.) However, at the end of the turn they built Copernicus' Observatory! As far as I know, you can't change your builds *after* discovering a tech.... at least I can't; apparently the AI can.

No, I didn't save the turn (for which I'm duly kicking myself.)

	10-11-2003 22:56									#11
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What do you mean you can't change your build after a discovery? I do that all the time. what am I missing? You can't switch to a wonder if you have corrupted shields in that build. That is if you did a chop or a disband or anything to add shields to that build.

	10-11-2003 22:57									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by geniemalin As far as I know, you can't change your builds *after* discovering a tech.... at least I can't; apparently the AI can.

Yes you can. Click the "Details" button from the new tech pop-up to bring up the tech tree, then you can click on your domestic advisor screen and change the builds for your cities.

By the way, I discovered Steam Power in my second C3C game way before anyone else, and guess what? Sumeria is willing to trade coal to me without having the Steam Power tech.

	10-11-2003 23:34									#13
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Well, that's...interesting....

Anyone got a clue when c3c lands in scandinavia?

	10-11-2003 23:35									#14
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But if England didn't have the tech at the beginning of its turn, how did it change its build to something requiring that tech *during* its turn?

	11-11-2003 00:00									#15
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The same way you can change your build after receiving a tech from another civ. As long as you have the tech before your turn ends, you can build units/ buildings/ wonders requiring that tech.

	11-11-2003 02:35									#16
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This is something I do all the time. Trade for a tech to get riflemen or some other thing I feel I need and switch build to that or upgrade.

	11-11-2003 06:15									#17
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quote: By the way, I discovered Steam Power in my second C3C game way before anyone else, and guess what? Sumeria is willing to trade coal to me without having the Steam Power tech.

Either they got Steam Engine at some point by the time they offered it to you or you ahve found a bug.

As to the original problem I cannot remember if I have ever successfully given a tech to an AI so I can trade for their surplus resources the same turn. Has anyone else managed this? It is possible the AI doesn't notice the resources until it's next turn, or that this is another bug.

And yep, I have been going to the Domestic advisor screen often immediately after discovering a tech - usually to change science rates for the best rate possible (no benefit to be gained from doing this now as opposed to later in my turn), but sometimes to head off Disorder. Also, if you get a city that builds something/goes into disorder, if you zoom in and try to go the the F1 screen it will not work until all the cities are checked. If however you click on the arrow buttons next to the cityname when in the city screen, you can tour your citites and stop any disorder/change any builds in cities that have not been processed yet. I do this often because I am lazy and rarely check my cities every turn for disorder, so when I get one in trouble I check the rest.

	11-11-2003 22:22									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Tall Stranger The same way you can change your build after receiving a tech from another civ.

I guess I didn't clarify - *nobody* had Astronomy....

	12-11-2003 00:05									#19
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

If England discovered Astronomy that turn, and someone else beat them to another wonder during the AI city build phase, they could have switched to Copernicus.

Last edited by Stuie on 12-11-2003 at 00:12

	12-11-2003 20:38									#20
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I guess that might be it (still doesn't explain the Coal situation though )

	13-11-2003 01:28									#21
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geniemalin, sorry for stupid question, but... Do you see at least the line "Resources" either in your or AI part of negoatiation screen? Is it collapsed or open?

Maybe you just forget to open it and do not see it. AFAIK, if AI has any resourse or luxury that you do not have you can see Coal(0) or Iron(0) etc. (number in brackets is number available to trade). I think this line should be visible even if AI trades from somebody else for resourse you do not have.

NB. When AI makes trades for resources or luxuries, it makes no distinction between unconnected resource in its territory and no resource.