02-11-2003 02:49									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat How is private schooling political expression?

It could be freedom of association (say in a Church school).

	02-11-2003 03:00									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Jac de Molay You think a private school would accept a kid from a poor neighborhood, with all his family and emotional problems and other baggage? They neither have the personnel or resources to deal with the wealth of problems these kids bring into the classroom . I don't care what strings are attached. Selective private schools have no business with state money of any kind.

The assumptions that went into this response show a tremendous amount of bigotry in my opinion.

	02-11-2003 03:01									#33
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Not necessarily. He could be assuming bigotry on the part of the school. Which, IMO, isn't that unreasonable an assumption.

	02-11-2003 03:08									#34
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Skywalker, or may I call you Luke?, I assume that private schools have admission standards other than simply the ability to pay. This should filter out the unruly ruffian from the ghetto. Those who would seek education in private schools and who otherwise could not attend due to lack of resources would ordinarily be very gifted intellectually, and should be given an equal opportunity in my view.

	02-11-2003 03:12									#35
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quote: Skywalker, or may I call you Luke?

If we're using nickname's, just use sky, please

quote: I assume that private schools have admission standards other than simply the ability to pay.

Not necessarily a correct assumption. Whether or not they should get equal opportunity, his point was that private organisations may not always give that, and it is a valid point.

	02-11-2003 03:13									#36
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Public schools can become a monopoly without cheating. Raise taxes for the rich he-bastards and she-bastards and improve schools!

	02-11-2003 03:18									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The assumptions that went into this response show a tremendous amount of bigotry in my opinion.

Screw you, too.


My question still remains unanswered, BTW. The private schools that are supposed to be the saviour of these poor kids don't have to accept them to begin with, and don't need to give a reason either. Thus, they shouldn't be entitled to state funds.

quote: I assume that private schools have admission standards other than simply the ability to pay. This should filter out the unruly ruffian from the ghetto.

Then how is a voucher supposed to help the 'unruly ruffian', or the special ed/handicapped kid, or the kid with emotional problems? Private schools can't be bothered to help the kids that are left behind.

	02-11-2003 03:57									#38
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The unruly ruffian should see time in jail or concentration camp, not in school. When and if he ever gets his act together, release him. Not before.

Vouchers are supposed to allow equal opportunity for all, just like scholarships and government aid for college students. The problem we seem to be having is the assumption that lower level public schools can be just as good as private schools. Regardless of theory, the practice reveals that public education is not and never will be as good as private education. So, not going to a voucher system is, IMHO,

UNETHICAL and IMMORAL.

	02-11-2003 08:02									#39
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It's a good idea to mix up rich and poor in the schooling system. Any school that is too much of one or the other starts to have special sorts of problems.

	02-11-2003 08:12									#40
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Regarding Porn and TV, that is bannable because the Federal Gov. owns the airwaves and so it is a matter of their proprety. For private cable networks, it is possible to have Porn on TV(such as Playboy TV)

	02-11-2003 13:13									#41
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Here , many people don't seem to realize the state of affairs . Natural , given that they have not seen what goes on here .

The ONLY good schools are private ones , and they are affiliated to the CBSE (Central Board of Secondary Education) . The sort of freedom they enjoy in the US is not present here . And private schools are not all moneyhungry monsters . In my school , though it is private , it is hugely subsidisied by a trust run by the founding organisation . I have to pay only Rs. 20,000 per year (that is about 4000 $) .

Also , you don't know the state of government-run schools . It is pathetic . I don't mind higher taxes to pay for that education , but I say that the existing system provides education that the government could never have dreamed of , much less achieved . Most of the educated peopel are here in private schools . A government school is looked upon with disdain by most people . I admit this is not right , and that steps should be taken to correct this . But NOT by spoiling the current system . It is the government who has to take the responsibility , not thrust it down the throats of private institutions that have done so much in education .

The sort of problems that the kids bring with them is also another example . As said before , they will get HUGE inferiority complexes , form gangs , and , in general , spoil the tolerant culture that most schools have here . This is said after taking a cold , hard look at the realities , not just by sterotypes .

Even though my school is subsidised (priavtely , by a fund) , it still gets students from both the highest and humble . It is renowned for it's excellent academic culture , nothing else . It is also very affordable (by middle-class standards) .

If a poor student comes to our school , he will be very intidated , because most of the students have access to resources that he cannot even imagine . And not jsut resources , but even basic amenities like power and water are scarce . Imagine wha will happen in such a scenario . Call me whatever you want , but the problems caused by this move are great . Here , I'm not politically correct , but the sort of culture these students bring with them is highly detrimental to the academic atmosphere of tolerance . Trust me , I know .

	02-11-2003 20:13									#42
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India is still struggling with its historical caste system despite 50+ years of government intervention to abate it. Let's face it, today there are really two Indias, one which is industrialized and which competes with the rest of the world, and one which is almost medieval. As long as people from the latter have no access to a decent education they're not going to have a shot at gaining entrance to the former. Giving kids from the lower class a chance at a decent education is one way of giving some degree of hope to India's impoverished masses. If you don't do this then you might as well add some sort of equivalence to the US Constitution's second amendemnt to your nation's legal code, because you upper classes are going to need to be well armed when the hoi-poloi get sick and tired of their status.

	02-11-2003 20:46									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The unruly ruffian should see time in jail or concentration camp, not in school. When and if he ever gets his act together, release him. Not before. Vouchers are supposed to allow equal opportunity for all, just like scholarships and government aid for college students. The problem we seem to be having is the assumption that lower level public schools can be just as good as private schools. Regardless of theory, the practice reveals that public education is not and never will be as good as private education. So, not going to a voucher system is, IMHO, UNETHICAL and IMMORAL.

Wrong.

There are many public schools that are BETTER than private schools.

	02-11-2003 20:46									#44
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm Well , is it ? The government here is planning to make it compulsory for all private schools to have a 20% quota for poot students (ie , those who can't pay) . WTF ? This takes away the entire premise that these schools have autonomy . Govt. aided schools are already controlled by them , why do they have interfere in the workings of private schools ? And what of the students themselves ? They are going to get massive inferiority complexes , form gangs , bully others , and destroy all sympathy these middle-class kids may have had earlier for them .

Mexico has a 2% quota required by the National Education Board for students to have 100% scholarships, of course they require a very high GPA to sustain it. Other type of student aid is usually available but the quota is enforced in ALL schools.

I went to a private jesuit University and was paying my way through architecture school, and was fortunate enough to obtain the grant...I normally didn't care about grades but in this case I made an exception because not keeping them would cost me a LOT of money. Hence, I graduated summa *** laude.

If the grant wasn't available, I would have been paying for school for a looong time.

	02-11-2003 22:25									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove India is still struggling with its historical caste system despite 50+ years of government intervention to abate it. Let's face it, today there are really two Indias, one which is industrialized and which competes with the rest of the world, and one which is almost medieval. As long as people from the latter have no access to a decent education they're not going to have a shot at gaining entrance to the former. Giving kids from the lower class a chance at a decent education is one way of giving some degree of hope to India's impoverished masses. If you don't do this then you might as well add some sort of equivalence to the US Constitution's second amendemnt to your nation's legal code, because you upper classes are going to need to be well armed when the hoi-poloi get sick and tired of their status.

I admit there are two Indias , but casteism is not one of the main issues we face . It's gone in urban India , even in small towns . The India which competes with the rest of the world is the mainstream , comprising some 60-70% people here . Here , private education is affordable for the middle classes . I don't mind giving tham educaiton , but I do mind forcing private schools , who have made even this middle-class educaiton possible , tobear the burden . This is what we pay taxes for , dammit , that government will ensure free and compulsory educaiton for thosae who cannot afford it .

Imagine this :-

You are a kid who has never seen the inside of a school in your life , having lived in a shack or hovel all your life . Suddenly , you find you and a few similar people herded into school . You feel very intimidated , as you can't understand so many thigns people there take for granted, and you have to bear the superior attitude of other people , as you are "the dumb one" . You can identify with the few others , so you form a group/gang . Whenever someone has any problem , the gang resorts to bullying . Is this what the policymakers intended ? Shouldn't they provide schools for such childern that they may get a chance to join the mainstream ?

	02-11-2003 22:26									#46
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quote: Originally posted by LTEC! I went to a private jesuit University and was paying my way through architecture school, and was fortunate enough to obtain the grant...I normally didn't care about grades but in this case I made an exception because not keeping them would cost me a LOT of money. Hence, I graduated summa *** laude.

@ the spam filter

	02-11-2003 22:36									#47
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I agree with Dr. Strangelove. though I know nothing about this particular issue in India and my knowledge of India is fairly limited, I do know that we (those in the West) can not use our standards to say what is right or wrong in the context of such an impoverished country as India (which also has the added problem of a only recently ended caste system). Maybe breaking the independence of private schools would be wrong here in the US, but in India, this may be the only chance a few of the millions upon millions of poor children have of actually getting an education and moving up out of poverty.

	02-11-2003 22:39									#48
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quote: You are a kid who has never seen the inside of a school in your life , having lived in a shack or hovel all your life . Suddenly , you find you and a few similar people herded into school . You feel very intimidated , as you can't understand so many thigns people there take for granted, and you have to bear the superior attitude of other people , as you are "the dumb one" . You can identify with the few others , so you form a group/gang . Whenever someone has any problem , the gang resorts to bullying . Is this what the policymakers intended ? Shouldn't they provide schools for such childern that they may get a chance to join the mainstream ?

so you're alternative would be to have these students stay in shacks until they're adults and then to work the fields for the rest of their lives? this aint no hand out or nothing... this is just giving poor people a chance to get an education so they can work hard to succeed.

	02-11-2003 23:12									#49
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Wrong. There are many public schools that are BETTER than private schools.

Agreed.

But, what about averages or the median? I would suggest that the best public schools are as only as good as the lowest quality private schools.

Read that post from aneeshm. "Government schools" are pathetic in India. On the whole, they are pathetic in the United States.

Now, why are they pathetic? Is it the people who attend them or the people who run them?

Private schools have to perform or they die. Public schools do not.

Public school education, I repeat, will NEVER be as good as private school eduction (on the average), in any time or place.

It is high time we all recognized this and began to act accordingly.

	02-11-2003 23:35									#50
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sounds good. they should do this in the U.S. Though if the kids prove to be too much of a nuisance they should be kicked out.

	03-11-2003 00:12									#51
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Separate but equal is alive and well in the United States and staunchly defended by the Democrat Party in opposing a voucher system.

	03-11-2003 00:24									#52
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Ned, you're right about the average. However, I never pass up an opportunity to brag about my school

	03-11-2003 00:29									#53
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the average is meaningless. Who has more money per student? Who has pupils that are better off financially, and get better resources?

	03-11-2003 00:52									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel the average is meaningless. Who has more money per student? Who has pupils that are better off financially, and get better resources?

Public schools get more than twice the money as do private schools.

Does that help?

	03-11-2003 00:54									#55
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The Democrat defense of public schools is simply amazing if you think about it. They say they are in favor the average folk, of the working man, of minorities. And yet, they favor apartheid in education.

Hypocrites.

	03-11-2003 00:59									#56
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I can't figure it out.

What's even worse is they want to keep public schools as is. They fear any kind of change that might make public schools better. The teacher's union has a strangle hold over the public schools.

And I always thought it was the republicans against change. Dems are as well.

	03-11-2003 01:12									#57
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quote: Public schools get more than twice the money as do private schools. Does that help?

from whom?

	03-11-2003 01:24									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: Public schools get more than twice the money as do private schools. Does that help? from whom?

Mostly from state governments, although there is increasing support from the Feds.

Once upon a time, in a galaxy far, far away, public schools were financed solely by local property taxes. When that was the case, the schools were generally a lot better. But it was felt that such funding made the "rich" schools better. Thus funding was taken up by the states to "level" funding. As a result, funding in poorer districts has gone way up, but parent influence on the schools has decreased.

All this shows is that parents are much more important that money.

But what also happened is that the rich turned to private schools across the boards as the quality of public schools fell. The only people who now send their kids to public schools in the US are those who cannot afford a private school. These are the poor, the working man and the minorities.

Now, one would think that the Democrats would favor expanding equal opportunity for the downtrodden. But they are the one's who are blocking vouchers. Why?

For one, vouchers would mean the end of public schools who could not compete with private schools on quality. It would mean a return to the bad old days of parent input and influence. It would mean that people could send their kids to religious schools - an anathema to the atheist socialist.

But the bottom line is that the elite Democrat sends his kids to private school even while opposing vouchers that would enable the poor, the working man and the minorities to enjoy good education.