02-11-2003 13:13									#31
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Did she use a sub?

	02-11-2003 13:19									#32
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I dont remeber it was over a year ago and I havent played A&A in a long time.

	02-11-2003 13:21									#33
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Then don't play against me in a long time

	02-11-2003 17:48									#34
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I used to play it in an AOL chat group. That was actually my first online community of any sorts.

	02-11-2003 17:50									#35
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?

	02-11-2003 18:36									#36
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I can barely believe what I'm hearing? If you guys think the allies are overpowered it's because the folks you're playing against AS the axis are doing what you expect/predict they will.

True, as the Axis, you have to take more chances, but then, you also have a BIG troop advantage in all the key spots on turn one....Germany can *rape* England for income on the first turn, and Japan can explode through Asia like nobody's business....in a matter of a VERY few turns, the income disparity will all but disappear, and if the Axis player sets the tempo of those early turns and does not allow himself to be completely dictated to by the Allied player, you're in deep doo.

-=Vel=-

	02-11-2003 19:40									#37
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quote: Infantry can't attack worth a flip!

Infantry absolutely rule this game. You don't want to fall into the trap of buying NOTHING but inf, but thats a trap because its tempting to do. Inf will be the vast majority of purchases.

About Allies being overpowered ... they absolutely are unless you play with a bid. This is like a fact based off of countless online games by leagues. The Axis needs like 16 - 18 IPCs worth of bid units to even this up. This bid is usually placed as German inf in Libya and EE or Ukraine, and maybe a Japanese inf or tank in Burma or Kwang.

You need the inf in EE/Ukraine to protect from the Russian first round attack. In Ukraine it can make it harder for the Russian to have enough survivng Inf to take the territory, thus keeping the fighter alive. You need the inf in Libya to allow you hold Egypt from the Indian counter. The unit in Kwangtung is to protect from the popular Kwangtung Surprise move on UK1.

Even with this bid, the Allies win about 5% more games than the Axis.

If you play Russia Restricted (RR) then the bid goes down to about 6 IPCs. This is usually placed as 2 inf in Lib.

Without a bid, the Allies should win a much higher percentage of games; I'd guess it approaches like 80 or 90% when both players really know what they're doing.

G1 is such a hard turn and theres so much to go wrong. Without the extra units, Germany will never get set up in Europe in time or hold Africa long enough.

	02-11-2003 23:10									#38
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what can I say, I love this game.

You think the allies were overpowered before.

Old fogies like me can remember the original rules. There was NO limit on the output of new factories purchased.

Britain could purchase a factory in the middle east and the game is won.

	03-11-2003 01:04									#39
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I think an aggressive opening Russia move really breaks up germany. I love the game (own it, and used to be able to set up the board from memory), but I hated the fact that fine startegy went down the tubes once the dies roled. Which is why I like less random war games. I can;t stand a great plan outdone by constantly rolling ones!

hahahaha!

chance happens in war. Imagine it like a freak snow storm stranded some of your tanks.

	03-11-2003 01:07									#40
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quote: Originally posted by BKWM That's not necessarily true. Japan can take out the U.S. navy fairly easily,but again that too involves a bit of luck as well. Once that is taken care of, the U.S. mainland can be taken. Once the U.S. mainland has fallen, the game's over and Japan picks wether to take out the U.K. or the U.S.S.R. I've done that acouple of time,but it takes a while.

U.S. mainland? I have never seen Japan go for the U.S. mainland in the early game and win. Most people go for Asia.

The problem is the U.S. can just stock up on infantry. Nothing can take it.

	03-11-2003 01:21									#41
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And I imagine with Bids the Axis can make a game out of it.

But unless Germany wins all their battles turn 1. Playing the regular game as the axis is very difficult to win. Sure Japan can rampage all accross Asia, But what good is that after Germany falls? It just takes longer to mop up.

The problem is germany is so surrounded. If they don't win their Africa battles and eliminate the British navy with few losses, and don't regain territories from the russians with few losses- they are doomed. A well coordinated U.S./U.K. attack will quickly take western Europe and then Germany. Coordination is the key of course. Things can go awry when the U.K. attacks finland and the U.S. is left trying to take western Europe by themselves.

But germany is doomed when they work together. It works like this. The U.S. or U.K. makes a suicide attack on western Europe. They probably won't win (though occasionally they do), but they soften it up for the other country to take it the next turn. This is something a human player can do that a computer a.i. can never figure out. Suicide attacks to soften things up.

next up. Russia. Back in the old days we used to perform the 3 pronged attack maneurver. Basically Russia has enough troops to take 3 territories their first turn. My brother used to do this more than me. I don't like taking Manchuria as the Japanese then land their troops in The Russian eastern territory (name? Kamchatka?) or retake Manchuria and then send tanks accross the vacated siberian territoires. I prefer to play defense with eastern Russia. As for germany I sometimes alternate. Taking just one territory still leaves Karelia open to attack. Keeping Karelia for as long as possible is the key to winning the game for Russia. Once you start losing that every turn (by losing it-retaking it etc) you are doomed. Eventually Japan will come in your back door. Taking Eastern Europe and the other eastern europe territory (can't remember name for some reason- its been a while since I played) prevents any decent counter attack on Karelia. Though sometimes Germany will use a transport and troops from finland to take it. But that leaves finland open to the U.K. (if they have any navy left to take it). Often I will take Eastern Europe (the territory closest to german). This splits the german forces in two. Most of the time they will go at all odds to retake eastern europe. But you will have a massive stack there- and german losses will be heavy. Although sometimes they send troops into Stalingrad area. Depends on what russia does with that 5 infantry.

Anyways I'm up for a Poly Axix and Allies group. I'm not the best player, but I like to think I'm pretty good.

	03-11-2003 01:24									#42
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Crud, can anyone direct me to somewhere where I can download Axis and Allies?

	03-11-2003 02:12									#43
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I don't know where you could download it. If you can find it in a store, it should be very cheap. I got mine for less than 10 dollars.

What I can direct you to is a thing called Triple A. It lets you play A&A without bugs and is free to use. However, it does not have pretty graphics, just functional ones. If you are interested it can be found here:

http://triplea.sourceforge.net/

If you're just after an A&A computer game that could do it. The Hasbro version might be somewhere, because I don't think Hasbro cares about it too much anymore, I don't know.

I was going to mention that a new A&A game was being made. However, I just found out that it will be an RTS! How you can make A&A into an RTS defies me. Given how most Civ players feel about RTS I doubt many here will be interested. I like RTS, but A&A as one sure will not be the same. I find this disappointing, a new bug free version would have been nice.

Dissident, you're right G1 has like NO room for error. Thats a major flaw in the game. If G1 goes bad, the Axis is doomed from the start, with a whole lot of game left to go.

Along those lines thats why I worry about the early fighting for EE and Ukraine so much. Its a situation where one mistake could really lose the whole game. Its like what Churchill said about Sea Lord Fisher during WWI (iirc) ... "no one else could lose the entire war in one afternoon." One bad move with Eastern Europe and the game could be over!

	03-11-2003 05:41									#44
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quote: That's not necessarily true. Japan can take out the U.S. navy fairly easily,but again that too involves a bit of luck as well. Once that is taken care of, the U.S. mainland can be taken. Once the U.S. mainland has fallen, the game's over and Japan picks wether to take out the U.K. or the U.S.S.R. I've done that acouple of time,but it takes a while.

How could you possibly have taken on the US when it has a 2-1 production advantage over Japan (or something like that, I haven't played the game in a while), and has no real vulnerabilities?

If Japan committs significant resources in attacking the US, not only can the US easily defend itself given its IC superiority, it can help with taking out Germany while Japan wouldn't be able to do much in putting pressure on the Soviets.

The best Japanese policy IMO is to ignore the US and take over Asia - and prevent Russia from deploying everything in the West.

	03-11-2003 06:08									#45
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OMFG THIS IS SO KINKY:

Cat...under dog!

	03-11-2003 06:12									#46
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

	03-11-2003 06:23									#47
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I can't the >cough< cat.... under dog >cough< to work for me though.

	03-11-2003 06:24									#48
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Iron Blitz or just vanilla? Iron Blitz is the only way to go...
though beware, it is as slow as fish.

And do you have a cold?

	03-11-2003 06:27									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo How could you possibly have taken on the US when it has a 2-1 production advantage over Japan (or something like that, I haven't played the game in a while), and has no real vulnerabilities? If Japan committs significant resources in attacking the US, not only can the US easily defend itself given its IC superiority, it can help with taking out Germany while Japan wouldn't be able to do much in putting pressure on the Soviets. The best Japanese policy IMO is to ignore the US and take over Asia - and prevent Russia from deploying everything in the West.

Well let me tell you. It is possible. I was his victum. Seems that I really shouldn't have lowered my force level so much in trying to shore up against that feigned Asian push. Trust me though...he won't catch me twice with that trick!

	03-11-2003 15:42									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Germany can *rape* England for income on the first turn

Not really, because Germany don't have enough units in Africa and Asia and can't get any to the right places. Besides, if he moves his units away from Europe, Russia would be grinning.

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx and Japan can explode through Asia like nobody's business

Yeah well, Japan can either decide to buy land units to go after Asia, in which case the US is going to come in and sink the IJN. Or he can beef up the IJN but lacks enough ground units.

	03-11-2003 18:39									#51
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:: shrug:: a matter of opinion, I guess, UR....It's not that difficult to knock 7 IPC's off of the English income on turn one, and another 3 from Russia....Japan can easily take 6 from Asia on the first turn, and there goes the vast bulk of the allied monitary advantage right there.



-=Vel=-

Last edited by Velociryx on 03-11-2003 at 18:47

	03-11-2003 18:44									#52
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And Ramo, I agree completely with your assessment. At game start the US is in NO shape to tangle directly with the Japanese navy and is at least three turns (if the US player focuses all efforts on Japan) from posing a credible threat. Those first three turns can be spent focusing on Asia to devastating effect.

-=Vel=-

	04-11-2003 01:05									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Not really, because Germany don't have enough units in Africa and Asia and can't get any to the right places. Besides, if he moves his units away from Europe, Russia would be grinning. Yeah well, Japan can either decide to buy land units to go after Asia, in which case the US is going to come in and sink the IJN. Or he can beef up the IJN but lacks enough ground units.

Japan is in the best position. I love them because they are so flexible. While it is true the U.S. can threaten the Japanese navy they are 3 turns away from that as Vel said. Assuming you wipe out the Pearl Harbour fleet which everyone should do. That just leaves a battleship and a transport in San Diego (western us coast). Sometimes if you lose too much taking Pearl Harbour, the U.S. may try to bring a couple of fighters and a bomber and try to wipe your navy out with that battleship and transport. But that is highly doubtful. next turn you can take that batttleship out if you wish. And this forces the U.S. to destroy your navy with aircraft before they can build any navy of their own. This buys you a lot of time.

In the mean time you concentrate on Asia, but spend a little bit rebuilding your navy so you're not too defenseless. Although if I suspect the U.S. isn't going to concentrate on me and instead will concentrate on germany- then I won't rebuild my navy. I just go all out on Asia. My asian strategy is flexible. It depends on if anyone builds an industrial complex. Sometimes the U.S. will by one for china, or U.K. build one in India. If so, then I take that first thing. Even if it leaves my Manchuria, or eastern china coast territory a bit open.

Now german strategy. I often take the 2 infantry in Italy and use them to attack Egypt along with the libyan forces. Although these troops are Italian and sometimes they struggle with actual combat . This is a risky battle with no air support. You should win, but you may lose 2 infantry. I try not to lose more than one. this gives you some dominance in Africa for a while. Of course you blitzkreig to take the other empty territory- that should go without saying.

My eastern European strategy depends on what Russia does on their first turn. If Russia doesn't get to attack (most games I play don't go by these rules- though I should). Well that's a toughie. If they are allowed a non-combat move they will reinforce Karelia- making that difficult to take.

I try to wipe out all U.K. naval forces as well. Often in the south I only take one battleship against one battleship. I know- the battleship is almost always a total loss. But I prefer to play offense than defense. Taking out the U.K. navy and occupying their seas forces them to destroy your navy with their airforce before they can build naval units.

	04-11-2003 01:20									#54
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dp

	04-11-2003 02:10									#55
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Its true that the Allies have an advantage overall- that is why we 'bid' for who played the Axis team in our online games. Each player would make a bid in units, money, or factories, and whoever's bid was lower would play as the Axis, but with the extra resources applied.

	04-11-2003 03:05									#56
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Sounds like we have pretty similar Axis openers, Diss!

Most of the games I've played in have precluded a first turn Russian attack, which completely changes the character of those opening turns, and invariably, the Russian player will non-com all but a token force (usually 1 infantry) to Karelia....of course, nothing pleases me more than to see the 1st turn Rus player attempt to hold both Karelia and (from memory, so I might not have the name right) Caucus. They simply don't have the goods to do both, and if they try, that's generally a quick Russian death.

If the Rus player is creative and husbands his eastern force, he *can* make life interesting for the Japanese player, but most players don't in my experience....they'll either throw everything they can into one big push to stall the Japs, or make a wholesale retreat. Neither one is a good option, IMO....much better ways to make use of those forces!

-=Vel=-

	04-11-2003 03:20									#57
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I don't always attack the US fleet as Japan. In my bad rolling experience I usually lose it all in the US counterattack. They can replace their fleet I can't. I'd probably hit the fleet of a good aggressive US player though because I don't want to have to worry about that fleet.

Our games were often Axis wins because we played Russia restricted, but also played with different blitz rules. You could blitz unused tanks through conquered territory.

Example: Russia leaves 1 guy in Caucus has 2 guys in Moscow. Everybody else in Karelia. As Germany you attack Caucus with your infantry from the Ukraine and the tanks from East Europe. After you win you use your 2 tanks from Ukraine and some planes and take Moscow.

It really helped spread Russia out and made the game more even.

	04-11-2003 08:00									#58
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I'm down to play ANY TIME, ANY WHERE, ANY SIDE, against ANYONE.

And Ramo,

quote: The Allies are way too powerful even when Russia can't attack first turn. Unless Germany is extremely agressive and lucky, the Axis with lose.

Well, then, let's play us a little one vs. one. You're the Allies, I'm the Axis, with Russia Restricted. Up for it?

	04-11-2003 08:08									#59
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David - I'm game if he doesn't respond. I think Dogs is still on this computer

	04-11-2003 08:09									#60
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I'm up for it - just not tonight. I'm off for an evening of drinkin' and carousin'