 |
|
David Floyd
|
|
The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:31
|
|
If the US goes "island hopping", then the Allies generally lose the game.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
nato
|
 |
West Unite
Aug 2001
time: 00:31
|
|
Just to reiterate what I said above, to make even a Russia Restricted game fair, the Axis needs to get a small bid, about 6 IPCs worth. This is almost always placed as 2 extra German inf in Libya.
Without that, the Indian counter on Egypt on UK1 is nearly certain to succede. Germany will prolly have to wait until G2 to take Egypt. This all is a fatal setback for Germany taking Africa. The game kind of revolves around that African income for Germany.
About a US Pacific strategy, that is considered exotic and risky. However, it is (or at least was) gaining in popularity just because its such a fun change of pace. It is fun to try after you get bored with the shuck, and gets the game out of the standard choreagraphy of moves.
Here is a great description of it by a guy named Dexdex:
http://www.spring1942.org/WarCollege/Goa/goa28.asp
(If you haven't already seen them, the other GOA corners are good reads also!)
Most of the time though Allies will just go with the standard shuck. It is well practiced, highly likely to work, and requires less preconditions than a Pacific strat.
So "island hopping" is fun if a lot of things go right for it on turn 1, and as a change of pace. However in the vast majority of games, and especially ones you really want to win, it doesn't happen.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Jack_www
|
|
Now that I saw this thread, I think once I get a new job I will get this game. It sounds fun to play.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
centrifuge
|
|
I used to love to play as USSR,
1st turn, (I think that Vel mentioned this), everything from Karelia except maybe 1 infantry retreats back to Russia. This includes the AA gun. Russia's AA gun heads east along with a couple of infantry.
Once they take Karelia, the option to destroy the industrial complex is used.
This sets up an easy counter attack, since Germany will likely be spread a little thin by trying to fortify Karelia. They will be in an espescially tough spot if they also decide to take Causcus the same turn.
The best thing that could happen for a German player is to see the USSR trying to fortify Karelia. IMHO if the USSR does that the first turn they are toast.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
David Floyd
|
|
The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:31
|
|
On the contrary, if Russia abandons Karelia on the first turn, then Russia is toast. All Germany must do is this: Attack Karelia with 2-3 infantry and a bomber, vs. the 1 Russian infantry. They will win almost every time.
If Russia destroys the IC in Karelia, then they are extremely handicapped, in that they can only put troops in Russia. As Karelia is worth 3 IPCs/turn, that is also 1 less Russian infantry per turn.
But it gets worse. Once Karelia is gone, there is no Russian threat to Finland or Eastern Europe, and the Ukraine can easily be taken and held. Even the Caucasus can be traded back and forth. This cuts a LOT of income away from Russia, and gives it to Germany.
But, you say, Russia will just counter attack and go back to Karelia after Germany takes it. Great! Just what Germany wants! Now that there is no AA gun in Karelia, Germany can simply use its superior air power with its ground units to destroy the Russian army. Once the army in Karelia is destroyed, all Russia has to counterattack AGAIN with is the 6-7 infantry they built in Russia on the previous turn.
Looking even BIGGER picture, in this scenario Russia has no way to deploy reinforcements to stop the Japanese in Siberia, and no way even to transfer a couple of infantry to India or Persia to help the Brits.
No, once Russia loses Karelia, the Allies have probably lost.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
David Floyd
|
|
The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:31
|
|
quote:
Losing Karelia the first turn by no means loses the game for the allies. |
Actually you are quite right, however, I was not addressing this point exactly.
What you are referring to is a G1 move where Germany stacks EVERYTHING they have in a push on Karelia, and probably takes it. This is perfectly alright, though, because the British have a UK1 counter, and Russia has an R2 counter before Germany gets to move again. Most likely, these counter attacks will be facing nothing but tanks.
This means that in a bid to win the game right away, Germany will lose ALL of its offensive ground support and most of its infantry - possibly even some air power - for the paltry gain of 3 IPCs. Sure, they knocked out much of the Russian army, but they won't be in a position to seriously threaten Russia for several turns, meaning that Russia can send a lot more forces east - and maybe, with British support, lock down EE.
Certainly, too, without the presence of a large German armored force in Europe, the US can shuck 12+ infantry per turn to France starting on US3 with no problem at all, and Britain can also come in with probably around 8.
From that standpoint, DanS, you are absolutely correct.
However, the situation I was addressing was one in which Russia simply pulls out of Karelia, and let's Germany take it with 2 or 3 infantry. That sets up a situation of trading back and forth, and gives a major economic and positional advantage to Germany for the reasons I described in my above post.
Play it out sometime - you'll see what I mean.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
nato
|
|
West Unite
Aug 2001
time: 00:31
|
|
Abandon Karelia first turn? No no no ... I mean no offense at all, but thats not the right thing to do.
Typically, Russia will hit Ukraine on first turn. The big question is whether they will take few enough hits to be able to take Ukraine or will they have to just strafe it (hit it to kill off some units, but not all). They need ... like 8 or so surviving inf to safely take the territory, thus getting 3 extra IPCs ("swing" of 6 total, because its 3 less for Germany) and killing the fighter. If the German defenders hit too many on the first round of combat, the Russians will have to retreat back to Karelia, leaving the fighter alive.
Note you want to be careful not to lose your precious 3 tanks, which is why you need the minimum surviving inf to protect them and make a German counter prohibitive.
After this they set up in Karelia with inf from Caucus, Russia, and new purchases, plus 1 or 2 fighters (1 if you sent the other east to force Japan to guard Sea of Japan trannies). This will be enough to prevent a German attack.
Usually Russia can put enough pressure on EE to force the Germans to abandon it for a turn. After that, the Germans have enough to move back into EE hard (hard means enough to hold it safely). Then most of the game Russia and Germany will trade Ukraine (sending an inf or two and fighters to take it back each turn).
Pressuring EE is why ITS A MISTAKE FOR RUSSIA TO BUY ONLY INF. You want to buy some extra tanks as well, like 3 maybe. The more mistakes Germany makes, the less pressure on Karelia, and the more tanks you can get away with purchasing. Ideally, these tanks will be placed in Russia, where they can pressure EE and also be used to threaten eastern territories that the Japanese will be advancing on.
Germany has a very difficult time setting up early on. They have to eventually hold Germany, EE, and WE hard ... but they lack the men to do this for a while. You want to pressure him early to force him to hold either EE or WE light (as in one inf, so you can trade it) early on.
The German response, before he can hold all Europe hard, will sometimes be to "rock the cradle." This means smashing a landing in WE while holding EE light one turn, then next turn swinging back to smash a force in EE and hold it hard, while holding WE light. The 2 movement of tanks and 1 movement of inf creates this situation.
Anyway, you want to pressure Germany, not abandon Karelia. Theres just no need to do that early on, and usually not later on either. Early on Germany is the one that has to abandon stuff, and later on the shuck usually means that Germany is long past being a real threat to Karelia.
These early Russian Front battles are what I was talking about above, the ones you can lose the whole game in one move on.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
nato
|
|
West Unite
Aug 2001
time: 00:31
|
|
Well, with all due respect thats wrong on both counts.
Its not a waste of time. Russia has the strength to attack on R1. It would, in fact, be a waste of time NOT to attack. In war you generally want to use resources as soon as they become available, and this holds true in games also.
German units aren't concentrated yet, you get to hit them before they do and weaken him. You may get to kill a fighter before it ever gets to attack, complicating Germany's many tasks on G1. And you get the swing of 6 IPCs.
Russia has a choice of three land targets: Ukraine, EE, or Finland/Norway. Each of these choices has its strengths and weaknesses. You could pick any of the three and be ok mostly, but I think on balance Ukraine is the best choice. To my understanding, it is the most popular, usual choice.
Compared to the other two, in Ukraine you get to take out one extra German tank. Compared to Norway, Inf there can still pressure EE next turn. Compared to EE, Germany has less in range to hit back with, so you can take it hard with tanks and get the extra fighter and swing of 6 IPCs.
On the second point, Russia Resticted IS NOT the default rules. Its a variant rule commonly used because even casual players realized the big advantage the Allies have (though as I said, even RR alone is not enough to balance it).
RR is common in casual, non league play. It might be considered the "default" in the World at War room on the Zone. However, it is definitely not the default for more competitive play. RR is not used in the main leagues/databases.
Therefore the bid is higher than in RR. Like I said above, the bid is around 18 without RR, 6 with it.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
David Floyd
|
|
The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:31
|
|
Sure Ramo...maybe we can get together on Sunday...
|
|
| |
|
|
|
nato
|
|
West Unite
Aug 2001
time: 00:31
|
|
quote:
Yes, but you're also splitting your own infantry. How much would you bring into the Ukraine? 3 infantry + fighters? I'll have to think about this.
|
Well, its like I described in my post above. You don't attack with 3 inf + fighters. That would be far too little.
First off, the fighters usually don't come. They are busy killing the baltic fleet, alone if you are risky, with the trannie if you aren't (the sub is hitting the Azores German sub, either killing it or blocking it off.) One extra fighter would help, but then can't be used elsewhere. This is a resource allocation decision you have to make.
You need to take enough inf to protect your 3 tanks if you end up taking the territory. You have to watch the battle carefully. If the German defenders inflict too many hits, you won't have enough surviving inf, so you must not take the territory. In this case, you want to inflict hits, but you don't want to accidentally kill them all and strand your tanks in the Ukraine, vulnerable to a counter.
Then you move the Russia inf into Karelia and place your new builds (all inf on turn 1) there. You also land 2 fighters. Germany won't have quite enough to take it
This is my least favorite and weakest part of A&A actually. RR is a nice way to play, and not worry about this all!
edit - I want to add you have a real smart point that attacking this way means Russia isn't concentrated either. You're right, and from R2 on almost all Russians will be concentrated on Karelia.
The thing is, Russia has the strength to take advantage of Germany's early dispersal and kill a nice portion of its army. Germany doesn't have the strength to do this on G1; they have so much to do and so little to do it with.
Last edited by nato on 05-11-2003 at 03:12
|
|
| |
|
|
|
centrifuge
|
|
The reason to abandon Karelia, is because of the large economic advantage that Germany has. If a Russian fortified Karelia is taken in the first turn, it is next to impossible to get the units back in a reasonable amount of time, espescially the tanks and fighter... afterwards, depending on who is in control of Germany, and with cooperation from your allies, it is easy enough to retake Karelia in a turn or two.
Granted it is a bit of a gamble, but the odds are that the average player of Germany will be trying to fortify Karelia with as many troops as they can spare, because they are going to start salivating at the thought of taking the Russian capital. This is where Germany can receive a major blow, one which will probably be hard to recover from, and will allow the US an the UK to easier begin an offensive.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
DanS
|
 |
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:31
|
|
quote:
You need to take enough inf to protect your 3 tanks if you end up taking the territory. You have to watch the battle carefully. If the German defenders inflict too many hits, you won't have enough surviving inf, so you must not take the territory. In this case, you want to inflict hits, but you don't want to accidentally kill them all and strand your tanks in the Ukraine, vulnerable to a counter. |
Here's where the resource allocation really gets you. Russia must above all keep its capital and then balance its two fronts. The tanks are too valuable to end the turn in the Ukraine. All of them need to be able to counterattack on either front on the second turn. Otherwise, the Japanese are almost assured to be attacking Moscow and Africa starting turn 5, with all of the IPCs between the Pacific coast and Moscow lost.
Last edited by DanS on 05-11-2003 at 03:22
|
|
| |
|
|
|
David Floyd
|
|
The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:31
|
|
quote:
Well, I agree you want the tanks to be able to threaten both fronts. Like I already said in a post above, the best place for them is in Russia proper to do just that. |
Early on, I'd probably put at least 2 tanks in Novo, for a possible counter against an early Japanese gamble into India - make it so unprofitable for Japan that they won't do it, even when the KNOW the Brits will put a factory up.
quote:
Japan's coming, but not for a few turns yet, especially if they got hit with Kwangtung Surprise. Don't grant them the advantage of tying down your tanks until you actually have to. |
Actually, a British IC in India, if properly played, can often times tie down the Japanese for even 6-7 turns, and that's against a GOOD Japanese player. In 6-7 turns, the US/British can be shoving a combined 20+ infantry per turn into Norway, France, or Algeria, and will have been doing this since around Turn 3.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Zylka
|
|
Dave, up for a game?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
David Floyd
|
|
The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:31
|
|
I no longer have Dogs of War on my computer.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Zylka
|
|
Hmmm. WHere can I get axis and allies, maybe kazza?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
David Floyd
|
|
The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:31
|
|
Hmmm, maybe. The PC version is very unstable when played online, though.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Zylka
|
|
So what exactly are all of you guys talking about playing
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:31.
Apolyton Time is 00:31. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
04-11-2003 09:52
|