02-11-2003 06:55									#1
	Colony Exploit Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Ok I was just playing a game and I was wondering this. Lets say you had a colony of gems. And you made a trade with Egypt for 20 GPT. One turn later you loose the colony. My questions is, does the player still get the 20 GPT from Egypt and does Egypt still get the gems?

	02-11-2003 07:02									#2
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AFAIK it is nope and you get rep hit.

	02-11-2003 07:40									#3
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Yeah its like you purposely broke the deal even though it might have been beyond your control.

	02-11-2003 07:55									#4
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wow, i got civ 3 when it first came out and i do not think that i have built a colony even once

	02-11-2003 08:05									#5
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If you have two sources of gems, and lose one, then the trade stays active.

This happened to me in one of my first games ever. I had been trading iron to Egypt, and one of my sources ran dry. I couldn't build anymore tanks and could NOT figure out why since I could SEE the iron. Then one turn Egypt called up to strike another iron deal and I kicked myself.

But if you loose your only source, then yeah, you might as well have done it on purpose.

	02-11-2003 10:00									#6
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quote: Originally posted by zorbop wow, i got civ 3 when it first came out and i do not think that i have built a colony even once

Sometimes it's useful to build a colony, if you are still away with settlers and the only workers that you have in the area are slaves.

	02-11-2003 10:09									#7
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I can't imagine wasting a worker for a lux that I already have, that is why I did not mention the fact that if you still have some, it will not be an issue.

There are a few situations where I may make a colony, but I can't remember the last time I did it. If the item is close enough for a worker to get there, it is close enough to bring under my borderrs soon. I do not want to loose a worker.

	02-11-2003 10:10									#8
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BTW just so everyone knows, I was playing a OCC.

	02-11-2003 13:02									#9
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I dont use them very often and find it frustrating that an AI can steal your colony just by placing a city next to it. Worse still is that he also gets a free road shipping it straight into his new city.

Of course I love it when I steal one of their colonies in the same way but I think this is too easy and maybe their should be possible diplomatic tensions associated with this.

If the colony is lost to cultural expansion then I guess thats just tough but for building a city right next to someones colony you should be taking a potential risk.

Would it be possible for the colony to hold out for X turns while negotiations take place, more likely Civ4 stuff this.

Conclusion : colonies at present are weak and rarely if ever worth the worker. At present

	02-11-2003 18:46									#10
	Got spare money?

yes, colonies are useless most of the time, there should be some sort of diplomatic negotiation when an AI builds a city next to my colony. maybe some money they would have to pay me in order to take control of that resource, or we could share that resource for X number of turns.

	02-11-2003 21:45									#11
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Or maybe you could maintain a colony as long as you have a unit guarding it. That would be cool and realistic, I think.

	02-11-2003 21:48									#12
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Except when you are playing OCC

	03-11-2003 00:00									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Nuclear Master Except when you are playing OCC

Yes there are always exceptions, that's what makes a general rule, otherwise it is absolute.

	04-11-2003 09:33									#14
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A bit off topic I know, but would somebody explain to me why you would play OCC? I've never tried, but it seems rather pointless to me. What am I missing?

	04-11-2003 09:42									#15
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If you think it's hard trying to win with a whole civ of cities, trying OCC is a real challenge! I have never tried it, but I can see why you would want to - bragging rights, if nothing else.

	04-11-2003 10:33									#16
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I wish colonies actually did something. Right now, they just let you take up resources and territory. But let them produce some shields or trade or something!

	04-11-2003 13:05									#17
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Fosse has it right. If you have 2 supplies, you lose your own first.

There is a much nastier colony exploit. I've seen it on undercrowded maps with large unsettled areas and no chance to expand further. The AI will build colonies to get resources and luxuries and then guard them with units. So far so good. But if you now pillage the road, you can screw it seriously. First, it's not an act of aggression, since it happened outside of cultural borders. And second, instead of just sending a worker to repair the damage, the AI withdraws the unit from the colony, leaving it for pillaging by barbarians, which are very numerous on maps like this.

	04-11-2003 14:48									#18
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I can think of one way to make colonies wortwhile, give back the worker when the colony disappears because it is swallowed by someones cultural borders.

	04-11-2003 17:12									#19
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quote: Originally posted by bongo I can think of one way to make colonies wortwhile, give back the worker when the colony disappears because it is swallowed by someones cultural borders.

This is an interesting idea.

	04-11-2003 17:54									#20
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Mod the game so that cities cannot be built in tundra/desert/jungle/forest and you'll need colonies. I use them all the time.

	04-11-2003 21:17									#21
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But does the AI then? Or does it just make it too easy for the player?

	04-11-2003 22:28									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Fosse has it right. If you have 2 supplies, you lose your own first. There is a much nastier colony exploit. I've seen it on undercrowded maps with large unsettled areas and no chance to expand further. The AI will build colonies to get resources and luxuries and then guard them with units. So far so good. But if you now pillage the road, you can screw it seriously. First, it's not an act of aggression, since it happened outside of cultural borders. And second, instead of just sending a worker to repair the damage, the AI withdraws the unit from the colony, leaving it for pillaging by barbarians, which are very numerous on maps like this.

Ran into that in your "BYE BYE PTW" game, SR?

I admit that in the early game, if a unit of mine comes across an AI road that travels through neutral territory, I pillage it. I know, I know, I shouldn't do it. A human oppponent would recognize it as an act of war and respond accordingly. So I'm taking advantage of the AI's lack of "I." But it's so inviting!

-Arrian

	04-11-2003 23:30									#23
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quote: Originally posted by dearmad But does the AI then? Or does it just make it too easy for the player?

The AI builds them as well. It's nice to see colonies actually getting some use.

But like Sir Ralph mentioned, you can cut the roads outside their borders and they don't see it as an act of war.

	05-11-2003 00:55									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Fosse This happened to me in one of my first games ever. I had been trading iron to Egypt, and one of my sources ran dry. I couldn't build anymore tanks and could NOT figure out why since I could SEE the iron.

Side note--had you modded the game? Why on earth would you need iron to build tanks? I thought all one needed was oil and rubber...

	05-11-2003 05:13									#25
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quote: Originally posted by dearmad But does the AI then? Or does it just make it too easy for the player?

Actually the AI builds colonies a lot if it needs to. In my current game (last PTW)

I have made mods as listed above and also no cities on hills. No cutting down forests or jungles, either. The map is 200x200 with 12 civs and it is still pretty fast in the late industrial age. There is a lot of open land and many colonies have sprung up.

I actually have 1 lightly guarded colony (soon to be 2) on an island where I have no cities. I am using Viking harbors to ship. Reenforcements are on the way and I am being very kind to them to keep this open as it is my only source of silks.

There are exploits, though. The AI does not utilize the undeveloped lands to mount invasions, so I don't. The AI does not pillage roads to colonies. Nor I. But they have attacked 1 of my colonies that was next to one of theirs.

eewolf

	05-11-2003 12:14									#26
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Thats an interesting pic eewolf, puts a whole new dynamic on colonies. How many cities do you have around your core ?

	06-11-2003 09:41									#27
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quote: Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus Thats an interesting pic eewolf, puts a whole new dynamic on colonies. How many cities do you have around your core ?

i had about 15 cities on my island. not being able to build cities in forests, jungles, tundra, deserts, mountains and hills makes city placement interesting. and my gems were all in the north country where i couldn't settle. early colonies and their roads needed to be defended from the raging barbs. i set up outposts and guards to protect as much as i could.

my 1st ptw game was babylon so i ended it with them. i wanted a cultural win and i got that (100,000). regent/200x200 arch/80% water/12 civs/many mods as listed above + wheeled galleys not allowed in ocean.

i conquered rome and carthage on a neighboring isle. 1 new lux + some extra that i had locally. did it mostly because i like watching legionaries throw their swords up in the air as their trampled by my knights. (rome didn't have iron so i traded some to them for 20 turns then went to war ) a few wars with the mongols and germans that didn't net anything. the vikings landed a pretty big force on the mongol island (6 galleons of cavs and rifles). they were cut to ribbons by mongol cavs.

it was about exploring, building and planning colonies. even with the lighthouse, i was exploring into the early industrial age.

it was for pure fun.

on to c3c...

eewolf

	06-11-2003 23:54									#28
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Wait a minute! You can ship resources from some friendly Civ's harbor to your harbor on another continent?

Wow! I had no idea.

GarP2

	07-11-2003 12:32									#29
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Well, you can use friendly roads and waters so it makes sense. Glad that implemented it though

	07-11-2003 16:32									#30
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quote: Originally posted by GarP2 Wait a minute! You can ship resources from some friendly Civ's harbor to your harbor on another continent? Wow! I had no idea. GarP2

Yep, that's the same way other civs can trade their resources to you - with routes they have set up.