02-11-2003 10:56									#1
	Will we ever see a 3rd expansion? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I want to say that I come in and out Civ wise. I get busy, so the game gets dropped. But for the past two years, I've always warmed up to the game every 3 months or so, just in time for my semester breaks, and I can say that I'm looking forward to Conquests.

But... I can't help but feel unfulfilled.

Let me explain. Conquests, for all its strengths, seems to me to be more about being an elaborate mod than an expansion pack. What I've been looking forward to ever since the 2001 Civ III was an expansion on the core engine (PTW's net play doesn't really count since it barely worked and it doesn't add to the 1p game). New units are nice. New civs are even nicer. Technologies are good, but they are not gameplay additions. If gameplay is the soup base, units, techs and civs are like the stuff (mushrooms, spices) you put into a soup.

I think I speak for many, if not most, if I say I wanted to see real gameplay additions.

-New diplomacy options (i'm sorry, but locked alliances isn't really a diplomacy option. it's a game setting).

-New methods or organizing your civ. How about a "real" internet, which can be built like roads. Have workers run around laying fibre optics line to connect your cities, and this would in turn open a new method to wage war. Enemy hackers? new spying?

And what really ripped my heart out was when I check the price. Amazon.ca is selling the game for $50. Mind you, Infogrames (Atari) released Civ III for $40 cdn. Why are we paying so much for an XP?

This leads to my comment. I'd like to see a 3rd expansion. I don't need new civs, or new techs. Just new features. Real features I can sink my teeth into. Atari can make this a budget title and release it next year, but I think whoever is doing the market research there has either missed the whole "we want new features" demographic or has simply ignored people like me.

	02-11-2003 11:05									#2
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I doubt we'll see a 3rd expansion. CivII only spawned two, and very few games have enough momentum to spawn three. By late 2004 the civ3 engine and graphics will be three years old, and that is likely the earliest they could create a third expansion pack. I think it is more likely that Civilization IV development will begin within a year of the Conquests release.

I think a lot more could be added to the game. Hell, I'd pay for two more expansion packs, even if they only added a few graphics and modding abilites. However, I think starting anew will be a good thing. There's a lot of hard-coded stuff in Civ that should be moddable, and the only way for that to happen is for there to be a sequel.

	02-11-2003 11:09									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior I doubt we'll see a 3rd expansion. CivII only spawned two, and very few games have enough momentum to spawn three. By late 2004 the civ3 engine and graphics will be three years old, and that is likely the earliest they could create a third expansion pack. I think it is more likely that Civilization IV development will begin within a year of the Conquests release. I think a lot more could be added to the game. Hell, I'd pay for two more expansion packs, even if they only added a few graphics and modding abilites. However, I think starting anew will be a good thing. There's a lot of hard-coded stuff in Civ that should be moddable, and the only way for that to happen is for there to be a sequel.

I think deep down, I know it's not happening, but I can't help but really feel disappointed how unlike other xps out there, Firaxis seems to be more interested adding fluff elements than going back into the game to add real features.

I just got Sim City Rush Hour XP, it was real cheap and it actually expanded on the game by adding new things to build and new transportation features, which is to sim city as new diplomacy and political/economic features is to Civ.

	02-11-2003 12:30									#4
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personally, i wouldn't mind seeing a SMAC II or a Civ 4 sometime late 2005 - mid 2006.

	02-11-2003 17:40									#5
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Actually, I don't want a third Civ 3 expansion. I think that with Conquests it will be a solid game, but now I'd rather see Firaxis work on SMAC2.

However, you may want to check CtP2 out. With the Apolyton pack, it provides many things that are superior to Civ 3 and other civ games. And, with the source code for the game in our hands, we will soon make other improvements.

	02-11-2003 19:22									#6
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I think that what you want (new gameplay features) will be in Civ4. After all, they have to leave something out of the expansions so they can release a new game, don't they?

But I'd really like to see SMAC2...

	02-11-2003 19:46									#7
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I doubt there will ever be a SMAC2. Why do I say this? The principals who worked on it have left Firaxis. This was really Brian Reynolds' and Tim Train's baby.

	02-11-2003 19:52									#8
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The Civ3 game engine is pretty much maxed out. The next Civ incarnation should be Civ4 with a more robust multiplayer game engine that could handle upto 12 players. Myself and other Conquests beta-testers made it quite clear the future of gaming is online, and the first developer to design a civ-type game based on multiplayer first will own the market.

SMAC2 is highly improbable as of right now. EA owns the SMAC game line and has shown they like making games that can generate multiple expansions and have solid fan bases that doesn't scream for the publishers head when something in a game isn't to their liking. Civ-type game players have repeatedly shown themselves to be the kind of fans who want to burn down the developers offices when the game isn't quite right out of the box.

	02-11-2003 20:09									#9
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quote: I doubt we'll see a 3rd expansion. CivII only spawned two

three. CiC, FW and MPG (which was civ2+FW features+multiplaying)

I pray to God we'll see a third XP...with eventscripting!

	02-11-2003 21:32									#10
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They have already said that event scripting for Civ3 is beyond their capabilities.

Won't happen.

	02-11-2003 23:38									#11
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but we could always hope and pray and badger for civ 4 on the scripting.

	02-11-2003 23:41									#12
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb They have already said that event scripting for Civ3 is beyond their capabilities. Won't happen.

No, not beyond their capabilities, beyond what they were willing to pay for C3C. There's a big difference.

I contend that a competent programmer (I'm assuming that all Firaxian programmers fall into this category) could put this in (even jammed in after the fact like it would be). The problem is that it may take too much effort to do this to be cost effective. It generally costs me around $3K a week per programmer for good programmer support (total costs, not wages). If this takes a lot of time there would have to be a lot of additional sales (sales from people who wouldn't buy it without this feature - this is not most people reading this thread) to make up for this cost. Also remeber that Firaxis only gets a small portion of the $30 price tag for an expansion.

In addition to direct costs there are the lost opportunity costs. What could that programmer have been working on if he (or she) was not implementing this?

Now, if they want a discount rate on this, I'm willing to talk

	03-11-2003 00:15									#13
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SMAC2 first, then Civ 4 would be the ideal.

As for a third Civ3 xp, that would be a bad idea. Although it is nice to keep getting new things there are just so many changes that the community has asked for that could only be implemented in a new game.

	03-11-2003 03:01									#14
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I think a 3rd XP would be rather like putting a radio in a horse-drawn carriage.

	03-11-2003 03:25									#15
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Well, I'd like to see a third expansion. Why? Because it'd take Firaxis about 2 years to make Civ4. I'd like to have something new to play in the series while I'm waiting.

	03-11-2003 03:26									#16
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With Conquests, the CivIII cow has been milked to death.

Give us Civ4!!!

	03-11-2003 04:29									#17
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hi ,

there is a 50 / 50 % chance in it , .....

but why dont ask the Q in the chat with Firaxis , .....

have a nice day

	03-11-2003 05:46									#18
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To be frank, I think the most likely time for XP's to have died out would have been after the rather lukewarm reception recieved by PtW. With C3:C, I think we are gonna get vast numbers of people-both 'ordinary' game players and 'fanatics' like ourselves-buying it. This would give Firaxis AND Atari/BA games a massive incentive for putting together a third XP !!! I can even see the name for it: Civ3: Diplomacy (or C3: D) In it, Diplomacy would be enhanced, with a whole host of new agreements, such as Protectorates, Banned Resources, Unit Trading and variable length agreements, as well as an expanded role for the UN in diplomacy and!! In addition, I could see such the game also introducing variable maintainance costs for different units; 'Operational Ranges' for units in enemy territory; a Naval Base terrain improvement, as well as 'rebasing' for naval units (to help naval units to better compete with land units after the railroad); Wonders which improve reputation and/or reduce the effects of Reputation Hits; Civil Wars and 'The Senate' (as game options); and a few new scenarios where diplomacy is MORE important than outright conquest, such as: 'The Late Colonial Era' (focusing on Africa, South and Central America, and South East Asia), 'The Cold War Era' and 'The Silk Road'!!
Anyway, these are just a few ideas for any Firaxians who might be checking out this thread !!!

EDIT: Would also like to see variable strength nuclear weapons (via the editor), and the addition of other types of WMD.


Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

Last edited by The_Aussie_Lurker on 03-11-2003 at 06:01

	03-11-2003 08:33									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I wish there would be a 3rd, but I'm not holding my breath. Though then again, I didn't think there would be a second.....I can't wait to get my hands on conquests. IThe Civ3 cycle has already given me immense enjoyment, yet there are so many areas that could still be shored up by another expansion.

	03-11-2003 12:58									#20
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quote: Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker To be frank, I think the most likely time for XP's to have died out would have been after the rather lukewarm reception recieved by PtW. With C3:C, I think we are gonna get vast numbers of people-both 'ordinary' game players and 'fanatics' like ourselves-buying it. This would give Firaxis AND Atari/BA games a massive incentive for putting together a third XP !!! I can even see the name for it: Civ3: Diplomacy (or C3: D) In it, Diplomacy would be enhanced, with a whole host of new agreements, such as Protectorates, Banned Resources, Unit Trading and variable length agreements, as well as an expanded role for the UN in diplomacy and!! In addition, I could see such the game also introducing variable maintainance costs for different units; 'Operational Ranges' for units in enemy territory; a Naval Base terrain improvement, as well as 'rebasing' for naval units (to help naval units to better compete with land units after the railroad); Wonders which improve reputation and/or reduce the effects of Reputation Hits; Civil Wars and 'The Senate' (as game options); and a few new scenarios where diplomacy is MORE important than outright conquest, such as: 'The Late Colonial Era' (focusing on Africa, South and Central America, and South East Asia), 'The Cold War Era' and 'The Silk Road'!! Anyway, these are just a few ideas for any Firaxians who might be checking out this thread !!! EDIT: Would also like to see variable strength nuclear weapons (via the editor), and the addition of other types of WMD. Yours, The_Aussie_Lurker.

Holy shiat Aussie,

we're like totally on the same wavelength here diplo wise. I'd like to see everything you mentioned in there, plus multi-party alliances with variable lengths. 5, 10, 10, 20 turns.

	03-11-2003 14:39									#21
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I think that since now we can be happy with Conquests,even if we still have to try it.

Said that,.. and talking about the future,it seems to me that nowdays it is a bit early to talk ,but if a Civ 4 will come I would like to have it done from the creator, SID.

Gunter

	03-11-2003 15:20									#22
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No more expansions, I hope they will start on Civ4 ASAP.

	03-11-2003 20:48									#23
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quote: Originally posted by dexters I think deep down, I know it's not happening, but I can't help but really feel disappointed how unlike other xps out there, Firaxis seems to be more interested adding fluff elements than going back into the game to add real features. I just got Sim City Rush Hour XP, it was real cheap and it actually expanded on the game by adding new things to build and new transportation features, which is to sim city as new diplomacy and political/economic features is to Civ.

dexters,

I have to say that I agree. I really do love this game, but I can't help but feel disappointed that we are now getting an XP that focuses mainly on Scenarios, rather than focusing on revamped diplomacy and an upgraded UN. If I had had my way, I would have delayed the release of Civ3 until it included MP, then released an XP focusing on diplomacy and other typical fluff, THEN released the Scenarios XP.

I dunno, IMHO so many more people would have enjoyed expanded diplomacy over Scenarios. We could have had both, but couldn't diplomacy have been upgraded at all?

	03-11-2003 21:50									#24
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel I wish there would be a 3rd, but I'm not holding my breath. Though then again, I didn't think there would be a second.....I can't wait to get my hands on conquests. IThe Civ3 cycle has already given me immense enjoyment, yet there are so many areas that could still be shored up by another expansion.

hi ,

well does any remember what happend when civ III got released , at first there was no talk about an XP , then it came , then there was no talk about a second one , then it came , .... so with a bit of luck we could see number three , .....

just keep thinking positive

have a nice day

	03-11-2003 22:28									#25
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The expanded diplomacy will surely be in Civ4. If they did all we wanted them to do with Civ3, why bother with Civ4?

	04-11-2003 19:15									#26
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quote: Originally posted by self biased personally, i wouldn't mind seeing a SMAC II or a Civ 4 sometime late 2005 - mid 2006.

smac2

civ4

The only thing that would interest me about civ4 is if they could improve the AI to the point that the AI does not need huge bonuses at Deity. IMHO, they have modified too much with c3c, adding too many bells & whistles without making the Ai stronger.