02-11-2003 13:33									#1
	Border Incidents: Getting the AIs to Respect Your Territory Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

It is well known that AI units love to violate the territorial integrity of the human player. Ground units, and especially ships love to pass through our turf with no regard for the colors on the map.

To deal with these infractions I propose that when one or more units of Civ A end their turn inside the territory of Civ B, Civ B should be permitted (without declaring war) to attack one Civ A unit in its territory per turn. This one unit can be attacked multiple times (in case the first attack fails).

In terms of realism this idea holds up given that limited border incidents usually don't start wars. In terms of gameplay this idea holds up given that it will be fun to blow away AI units while at peace.

Discuss.

	02-11-2003 13:58									#2
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i agree, the AI really shows no repsect of borders especially whwn you in a government that will be affected by war weariness.

good suggestion hope they take it all on board

	02-11-2003 18:39									#3
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I like the way such things were handled in CTP2: you could expel any unit from another nation which would invade your territory, there was an "expel" command that didn't mean you would fight a battle, and the offending unit was automatically removed to out of your borders. Of course, using the expel command meant that the other nation would not like you very much, but that not meant necessarily a declaration of war.

	02-11-2003 19:11									#4
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i hate how the ai has no respect for borders, that would be a great idea with the one unit combat and all.

	02-11-2003 19:51									#5
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They show the exact same respect for my borders as I do for theirs. I walk all over their terrritory and only leave if they expel me or cause a war over it (they usually bluff).

You can tell them to leave. They might even do it. You do have to be willing to start a war over it though.

	02-11-2003 21:32									#6
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It would certainly be a nice alternative to blocking, anyhow. Always had to try to imagine the conversations between the three warriors and the settler.

Settler: "Hello three warriors, I'm just a-passin through this land to create an annoying settlement in a gap on the other side of your civ's territory."
Three Warriors: "Hello settler. You can't go through here. Find another way."
Settler: "Okeedokee."
(40 years later)
Settler: "Hey! Aren't you the same three warriors I saw 1 tile...er...I mean 200 kilometres to the northeast!"
Three Warriors: "Er...no! That is...what, I guess we all look the *same* to your culture group, huh!? Find another way around!"
Settler: "Okeedokee."
(repeat for next 3 centuries)

I'm not too sure about attacking them, necessarily, but it would be cool if units in your territory from civs you were at peace with (and had no ROP with) could be culturally converted. Or at the very least non-military units, anyhow. Sending a settler or worker on a shortcut through your territory might seem suddenly unappealing to the AI.

Last edited by GRM7584 on 02-11-2003 at 21:42

	03-11-2003 00:06									#7
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The problem with an expel is that the unit may be advanced towards its intend location. I don't mean in CTP, asking to leave works that way now.
If you are percieved as strong, they will not send settler combos through you land. They will send troops through to get at another civ, regardless.

I like the idea of being able to have border conflicts, with no war. It happens all the time, airlines are shot down and war is not declared.

	03-11-2003 01:43									#8
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Border scuffles would be

	03-11-2003 06:24									#9
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quote: Originally posted by GRM7584 It would certainly be a nice alternative to blocking, anyhow. Always had to try to imagine the conversations between the three warriors and the settler. Settler: "Hello three warriors, I'm just a-passin through this land to create an annoying settlement in a gap on the other side of your civ's territory." Three Warriors: "Hello settler. You can't go through here. Find another way." Settler: "Okeedokee." (40 years later) Settler: "Hey! Aren't you the same three warriors I saw 1 tile...er...I mean 200 kilometres to the northeast!" Three Warriors: "Er...no! That is...what, I guess we all look the *same* to your culture group, huh!? Find another way around!" Settler: "Okeedokee." (repeat for next 3 centuries)

heh, heh... I like this little interchange!

You could improve this little skit by having one of those warriors club the settler. I like the animation when they die

	03-11-2003 06:29									#10
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forgot to stay on topic

Yes, I like the idea of border incidents. Remember in the mid '80s when the US sailed a small battlefleet into the ocean squares claimed by Libya? We shot down two of their fighter jets in the incident - but no war...

I guess we didn't respect their cultural/political boundary!

	03-11-2003 07:50									#11
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I alway thought the AI was stupid not to capitalized on my extensive road network and humor myself as they take two hundred years to cross my territory.

	03-11-2003 09:43									#12
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Civs can only use your roads and rails if they have an RoP.

	03-11-2003 16:20									#13
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The AI's desire to cross one's territory seems rather easy to see through IMO.

1) they want to settle on an empty spot.

2) they want to attack an enemy that lies behind your empire.

I have no huge problem with wandering units, but it can get nasty when the civ in question sends a true horde of units over the borders- creating a hazardous situation for myself (sneak attack!).

What I usually do is to take a handful of units and block off a strip of land. If this virtual unit-border cuts off the AI from it's 'desire' (see 1 and 2), it will abandon its foolish plans and retreat, presumably with the fantasy of loading their triremes aka caravels etc instead.

	03-11-2003 16:45									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Alex I like the way such things were handled in CTP2: you could expel any unit from another nation which would invade your territory, there was an "expel" command that didn't mean you would fight a battle, and the offending unit was automatically removed to out of your borders. Of course, using the expel command meant that the other nation would not like you very much, but that not meant necessarily a declaration of war.

Not any unit. You can expel only non-combat units in CtP2, like settlers and spies.

On topic: The AI will in 2 cases always ignore borders, and there's nothing one can do against. The first is wandering settlers/defenders and the second is land explorers and ships, which can't get to their preset destination in another way. The general rule is, the stronger you are militarily, the less will the AI violate your territory.

	03-11-2003 22:24									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Not any unit. You can expel only non-combat units in CtP2, like settlers and spies.

That's true, I forgot about that.

	03-11-2003 22:29									#16
	Re: Border Incidents: Getting the AIs to Respect Your Territory Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Defcon5 To deal with these infractions I propose that when one or more units of Civ A end their turn inside the territory of Civ B, Civ B should be permitted (without declaring war) to attack one Civ A unit in its territory per turn. This one unit can be attacked multiple times (in case the first attack fails).

Just create a Hidden Nationaliity land unit, and if they cross your border you can attack them without starting a war. Of course you'll take a hit diplomatically if you do that.

	04-11-2003 00:05									#17
	Re: Re: Border Incidents: Getting the AIs to Respect Your Territory Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Willem Just create a Hidden Nationaliity land unit, and if they cross your border you can attack them without starting a war. Of course you'll take a hit diplomatically if you do that.

I've sometimes modded the guerrilla to be colorless but when you do that the AIs use them offensively, a lot. Any turn you leave an undefended worker on your border you may as well say bye bye to that worker.

	04-11-2003 22:51									#18
	Re: Re: Re: Border Incidents: Getting the AIs to Respect Your Territory Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Defcon5 I've sometimes modded the guerrilla to be colorless but when you do that the AIs use them offensively, a lot. Any turn you leave an undefended worker on your border you may as well say bye bye to that worker.

Yeah I know, it makes things interesting doesn't it?

One thing I've been thinking about with Conquests, now that the Stealth ability can be applied to land units, the Hidden Nationality units are going to be a lot more formidable. The AI quite often sends them in on kamikazi missions that quickly results in their deaths, but they should be a lot tougher to take out now with that flag enabled. Plus the enslavement abilty should make them interesting as well.

Just a couple of more days now, I already have it paid for.