03-11-2003 02:34									#1
	Holy GS landing batman! Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Panzer is chatting with me, Sharpe, and Nimitz right now.

GS has landed 4 pikes and 12 Knights on a mountain S-SE-SE of Yellowknife.

We are discussing the situation with Panzer but trying to be as non-committal as possible. So far the subject of the LEFs have not come up.

Here's an image (posted with Panzer's permission):

Last edited by Kloreep on 03-11-2003 at 03:48

	03-11-2003 03:01									#2
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Log

quote: * Now talking in #gow Kloreep> Hi Sharpe> Hi! Panzer32> is Nimitz coming? Sharpe> I posted in the Lego chatroom , so not sure Sharpe> If he wants to be FAM I would recommend it * Nimitz has joined #gow * Panzer32 sets mode: +k jekc Panzer32> hey Nimitz Nimitz> hey * Panzer32 sets mode: +ooo Kloreep Nimitz Sharpe Nimitz> long time Panzer32> ok I just got the save and I just came across some important information Nimitz> ya Panzer32> GS has invaded GoW mainland Sharpe> where? Panzer32> http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Pa...GSINVASION1.JPG Panzer32> near Yellowknife Panzer32> not near our core but still threatening Panzer32> btw, we just got the save so I'm doing this as a privateer for now Nimitz> lol Sharpe> k, looks a large force.. Nimitz> 4 pikes and abunch of knights Kloreep> Mind if I link that pic in the Lego forum? Panzer32> we have 5 riders in the immediate area and have about 7 riders and 3 horsemen in our core Panzer32> no go ahead Klo Sharpe> how well are the cities in that area defended? Sharpe> vis a vis are there any musketmen there yet Panzer32> no muskets, just pikes Panzer32> technically the cities aren't defended but there are 4 pikes making a sea wall (but not at that mountain ) Nimitz> ok that is troublesome Panzer32> the closest barracks for upgrade is in Skulgaria but that is a 2 turn round trip for pikes Sharpe> Skulgaria is a good place to gather your forces to stop GS - I would imagine that your cities east of there are very corrupt... Panzer32> yeah... I think we can stop them earlier though Panzer32> I'll admit I'm the Lord of that area so I don't want them to conquer it Panzer32> brb Sharpe> are you sure you are the target? from that spot they can attack either you or ND Panzer32> back Panzer32> it takes them 3 turns to nearest ND city, 2 turns to 2 GoW cities Sharpe> and admittedly there are more GoW cities in that area Panzer32> looking at it, I would say Yellowknife would be the first target Sharpe> yeah, although probably Port Isolation is the ultimate target Panzer32> right Panzer32> the thing is, if they get Yellowknife, Port isolation is only 1 knight trip away. otherwise it is 2. Panzer32> (depending where they move of course) Panzer32> Yel. is the most strategic city there, the road network goes right through it Nimitz> hmm * Nimitz sets mode: +s Panzer32> well thats basically it for now Sharpe> k, thanks for the early info Panzer32> I imagine we will discuss a strategy in gow and will be able to tell you more either tonight or tommorrow Sharpe> k

	03-11-2003 03:42									#3
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well, not entirely unexpected news, but the lack of GoW defenses is a little disturbing. If we could see something like that coming, I don't know how they couldn't Oh well. There has been no official request for Lego intervention yet, so let's hold until we see if they ask us for it.

	03-11-2003 12:56									#4
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Hm, looking at the picure, I do not really see how we could avoid getting our units engaged within several turns - it will be in our own interest to not let GS gain anything substantial with this new stack. Fortunately, LEF1-2-3 are almost in position near Macao. And the GS stack will need a couple of turns to get somewhere they will be able to do real harm.

I believe LEF4 shall leave for Bob this turn, followed by a musket-only LEF5 a turn later.

THIS is what LEF was meant for. That's why GoW kept their cities lightly or not defended in this area. OUR units are supposed to help now.

Let's wait what GoW asks us for, though...

	03-11-2003 14:03									#5
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I too believe we won't be able to not get involved this time. This is exactly why we sent LEF there: to protect N-E Bob from GS.

Send LEF4. A musket only LEF5 is also a good idea. Depending on GS's commitment for the northern front, we must consider sending more troops in the future (cats + knights). We must definitely build them for now, even if we won't send them.

We must also write a declaration of war to GS. Good manners require to send one before we attack their stack Besides our luxury-trade agreement we have with them requires a preliminary warning (one turn ahead) before cancelling the luxury trade.

So IMHO we should write a warning message to GS NOW (perhaps on our turn), making it clear that if they do not retreat from N-E Bob, we would :
1. cancel the luxury trade next turn (trade embargo) and
2. seriously consider engaging militarily agaist them

	03-11-2003 19:37									#6
	Tired of ads?

I would hold off sending any messages for at least one more turn. Let the stack indicate where its going, and let GoW communicate with us how condifent/unconfident they are feeling about it militarily. We don't want to jump the diplomatic gun and make trouble for ourselves if we ultimately don't have to, so no need to rush. And I wouldn't phrase it as a declaration of war, more as a stern warning that if they don't get off Bob, we're there to "peacekeep"

	03-11-2003 19:58									#7
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Is it not in our interests to 'counter-attack' GS? I understand however that GOW/ND units in the area are somewhat scarce.

Perhaps we should indicate our concern at 'information' that has been brought to our attention and inquire as to GS' overall intentions. We may be able to stall them slightly. Time can only be our freind in this situation.

	03-11-2003 20:05									#8
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Considering that even the already sent LEF groups are not yet in a position to engage the GS stack, I would prepare the note to GS, but not send it until we have a better idea about the general plan and things to come.

Whether we word it as a stern warning or declaration of war is not al that important, I think - the meaning will be the same either way. If GS moves towards GoW or ND (and they WILL move in that direction, that's as clear as a day), we will have to attack them - so we better word it so that we do not need to send another note when we need to strike them.

	03-11-2003 20:08									#9
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quote: Originally posted by redstar1 Is it not in our interests to 'counter-attack' GS? I understand however that GOW/ND units in the area are somewhat scarce.

I believe that the best course of action would be to let GoW or ND defend a city (probably losing it), forcing the GS knights to bleed, with our LEF troops striking immediately afterwards.

We should do our best to avoid getting attacked before delivering the first blow - with no dedicated defenders, we would lose high-punch units we need.

	03-11-2003 20:59									#10
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We need to send a stern warning on this turn. As Vondrack stated, then no other warning is necessary.

Hopefully they will be surprised to see our LEF units, so soon. GS may be thinking that our invasion units have not left Bob, in which case the Lego forces are several turn away.

We need to buy at least two turns so we can position the LEF units. Sacraficing a GoW city would buy us a 2-3 turns. I think this would be the best plan of action.

LEF4 must sail on this turn. Followed by LEF5 (defense) and then we can open the flood gates of LEF units.

	03-11-2003 21:47									#11
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Why should we wait with the message? What could happen in 2 turns? We will be closer to them, yes, but other than that? Do you think that they will suddenly change their minds and retreat? Or that GoW will gather enough forces to defend their homeland?

If we want to give GS a chance to withdraw we must send the message now, before any fighting takes place; after that there will be no turning back.

I suggest to write the message as an ultimatum: retreat from northern/eastern Bob or face the following Lego actions:
- trade and tech embargo starting in 2 turns (to avoid breaking the luxury deal; with the one turn ahead warning we can cancel it peacefully)
- could we maybe consult with Vox and ask them to join the embargo ? It wouldn't have too much of a practical importance, however the phsychological blow may worth it;
- possible military actions anytime in the near future (we must avoid using exact dates; they probably don't know about LEF)

Important is to make it clear: if they attack any GoW or ND city (not the conquered spanish ones) means declaration of war against Legoland. This way we won't need to send another message later.

As for the war itself, I suggest to ask for a RoP with GoW and ND only after sending the warning to GS. We won't be able to fight in the next 2 or 3 turns, so yes, sacrificing a GoW city and counterattacking after that seems the best idea. We must avoid any fighting until all of LEF (1+2+3) are together and can act in one stack.
Luckily Yellowkife and Post Isolation are both on grassland and we won't need to attack pikes on hills.

	04-11-2003 01:17									#12
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Heh... I have just had a really wicked idea... what if we let the GS stack approach Yellowknife (1 turn) and then have the city gifted to us?

We would:

1) pull the same dirty trick on GS they pulled on GoW, teaching them that what they do not want others do to them, they should never do themselves in the first place
2) force GS to declare war on us, rather than the other way round (+they will have to cancel the deal first, which will cost them an extra turn)
3) be able to defend the city with up to 9 fortified "pikes" (=knights) that would not allow the attacking knights to withdraw if losing, thus inflicting significant losses

What do you think?

	04-11-2003 01:22									#13
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Perhaps a two step process involving both ideas: Warn them not to move against NE Bob, and if they do, pull the city-gift trick. Even if we don't get defenses there in time, if they take the city, it still gives us the happiness boost, and who can argue with that

	04-11-2003 01:25									#14
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Yeah, the happiness boost, that's the ticket...

But seriously - not a bad idea. Warn them now that they are getting into troubles. If they do not withdraw (and they will not), pull the city-gift trick, delaying them.

	04-11-2003 03:28									#15
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My only problem is to resort to a "trick". I suppose it is a legal trick, since if has been used often enough. Hey if GS used it (Honor Code and all) it must be acceptable.

I suppose with a stern and clear warning and if GS continues to advance on the Yellowknife, we should pull the city-gift tactic (calling it a tactic sound much better ) I think GoW would go for this tactic.

	04-11-2003 03:49									#16
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Hmmm... while putting together the turn plan, I have realized that the idea has a weak point. We need three turns (with RoPs beginning on the next turn, T149) to get all 9 knights there.

Say, we send the 'stern warning' this turn and move LEF1 to S of Skulgaria, LEF2 to S-S of Ningpo, and LEF 3 to S-S of Macao (T148 - no RoP). GS move N, we accept the city and move/fortify LEF1 there; LEF2+3 moves to S of Skulgaria (T149 - RoP with both GoW & ND). GS sends the lux deal expiry note, we move LEF2+3 to Yellowknife and fortify there... (T150). On the next turn, GS attacks (T151).

This would be the ideal scenario. But if GS, uhm, 'forgets' to send the lux expiry note and simply attacks on T150, we lose three knights and the city...

And I am not even talking about the possibility of GS moving their knights NW-NW immediately...

	04-11-2003 03:51									#17
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Oh, and... Leo is right, of course. It's not a trick, but a tactic. A very valid one. Used by the most honourable players worldwide.

	04-11-2003 04:19									#18
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I'm skeptical they would stop for a city gifting; as such, the only point would be to let us defend the city (which won't work if they rush ahead with Knights; we have to be sure of beating them to Yellowknife), and I don't like 4 vs. 4 when they have 12 and we have 9.

Perhaps GoW could rush a cheap militaristic wall for us before gifting it? That would make the odds much better. Otherwise, we'd simply be gaining +35% for fortification and for open ground, making our defense 4 vs their attack of 4. Even odds individually, but they have numerical superiority.

Also, I want to know what GoW and ND can send to the region. (Not just what they have there, but what they can send in time. A few more troops won't make much difference in Pamplona by the sound of it, but this is a smaller battle that could be turned by a few extra Riders and/or Ansars.) With a stack this big, a joint attack over the span of one turn (GoW attacking to weaken, then us finishing things off) would likely work best.

I'd really like to avoid fighting GS, but there's no way we can turn down GoW if they request help. We'll just have to do what we can to patch up relations after this war.

	04-11-2003 04:30									#19
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Yeah, walls would be a must, that's for sure. With them, we should be able to hold the city (odds would be 2:1 in our favour).

As for patching relations... I would not worry that much. Trading partners will be rare for GS after this war ends (with RP perhaps gone, GoW/ND sworn enemies, and Vox less than loving the team that drove them off their homelands). GS will be happy to side/trade with us, if for nothing else, then out of necessity.

	04-11-2003 12:38									#20
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It's not a trick, it's tactic. It would be a trick if we teleported units gifting cities back and forth.

I say we should use it only if all our units could arrive in time before the attack, and GoW can rush a wall.

Let's see first what GoW has to say about this and coordinate with them.

Regardless, we must send the message before the action.

	04-11-2003 12:59									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Let's see first what GoW has to say about this and coordinate with them.

I have PMed Aggie yesterday, asking for a 'coordination' chat. Should talk to him later today, BEFORE GoW sends the save on.

	05-11-2003 10:53									#22
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Just very briefly (I am leaving in a couple of minutes): talked to Aggie yesterday. GoW has ~15 riders plus some pikes capable of making stand against the GS stack. Put briefly: it's GoW's business for this moment - we are to keep moving our units into position, being basically their reserves.

Y'knife will be made pop 7 by adding workers (currently works on FP), no possibility of having walls there. Also, this quite likely renders our idea with city gifting impossible - GoW would lose their FP build there...

Will post the full chatlog later today.

	05-11-2003 14:48									#23
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Here is the full chatlog:

quote: Session Start: Tue Nov 04 18:08:34 2003 Session Ident: #gow * Now talking in #gow vondrack: hi, Aggie! vondrack: I have very little time now Aggiemowa: well it finally happened, gs cam enorth vondrack: so, very briefly: Aggiemowa: ok vondrack: this is what triggers our military involvement Aggiemowa: yes vondrack: we are ready to fight vondrack: any plans? vondrack: ...though, we would still need few more turns to position our units vondrack: but, well, nothing is perfect vondrack: how is your situation in the area? Aggiemowa: well here 's what I am doing now, I have 15 riders in the north that I am sending to yellowknife. i'd suggest you concentrate your forces then proceed towar the combat zone. I'll offer a ROP vondrack: k vondrack: that's very good news vondrack: I was afraid of having to attack with scattered forces Aggiemowa: nd will offer sp this turn and we'll upgrade the pike in the area to musk too vondrack: cool vondrack: btw - do you have walls in Y'knife? Aggiemowa: nope but we will join 3 wroekrs to it, to make it size 7 Aggiemowa: it is working on fp right now vondrack: ah, I see, ok Aggiemowa: i am not sure where the ultimate target is actuall but from yellowknife we can go either way vondrack: then, I guess, there is little to discuss at this very moment vondrack: if you can hold on your own for a turn or two vondrack: then we are fine Aggiemowa: we can vondrack: we need 2-3 turns to have our nine knights together vondrack: less than I would wish, but at least vondrack: they are "expendable" vondrack: we can attack without fearing to lose them Aggiemowa: i was going to have you take a worker to cut iron, but many wanted more pike and less horse to upgrade. So we'll keep the iron for now * Nimitz has joined #gow Aggiemowa: maybe your elite will give you a GL vondrack: ok, iron stays with you Aggiemowa: hi minitz vondrack: ummm... not sure what we'd do with a GL Aggiemowa: i mean nimitz Aggiemowa: well we were having that debate, but we've been unlucky there Nimitz: hi vondrack: Aggi, one question Aggiemowa: yes vondrack: shall we send a "stern warning" to GS? vondrack: or keep our stance 'secret' Aggiemowa: that might be good vondrack: ok, we will send it vondrack: we were debating that in our forum vondrack: we will not disclose our mil. presence on Bob, though Aggiemowa: the warning might be good, but it is fully up to you vondrack: just usual diplo mumbo jumbo vondrack: yap vondrack: ok Nimitz: yup vondrack: any tiles that are crucial for the movement of your troops? Aggiemowa: gs probably suspect but has no idea about the troops i think. vondrack: I would suggest you tell us the exact route our knights should follow vondrack: to prevent traffic jams Aggiemowa: not real our troops are moving on the road from "the hill" to Yellowknife Aggiemowa: the only real trafic problem could be our elite pike that I am deverting through nd territory to you Aggiemowa: i mean to yellowknife vondrack: ok, just drop me a PM if you think there might be a problem vondrack: our units should proceed 'expectably' Aggiemowa: i had the game open and was playing but my comp was moving too slow so i had to close it Nimitz: so what is our plan vondrack: for the moment vondrack: it's GoW business vondrack: we move our units into the position vondrack: within the striking distance from the front Aggiemowa: we are moving riders toyellowknife(along with pike) vondrack: right? Aggiemowa: yes vondrack: great vondrack: LEF4 leaves this turn Aggiemowa: we actually outnumber that force vondrack: LEF5 a turn later Aggiemowa: of gs vondrack: that's very good news Aggiemowa: perfect vondrack: gotta run now Nimitz: so we hold up as back up vondrack: sorry Aggiemowa: thats ok vondrack: I will check after I come back home (in about 2 hours) Aggiemowa: yes nimitz, you all concentrate then will head toward all the fun vondrack: if you are still here, we can talk more Aggiemowa: ok vondrack: or Thursday evening, as usually vondrack: take care Aggiemowa: yes vondrack: and good luck vondrack: bye Aggiemowa: you too Aggiemowa: bye vondrack: bye, Nimitz Nimitz: cya vondrack Session Close: Tue Nov 04 18:26:24 2003

	05-11-2003 15:47									#24
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Just to make sure nobody misses it - there is a draft of our "stern warning" in the GS diplo thread.

	05-11-2003 16:05									#25
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Sounds good. I'm a bit happier with the idea of not attacking GS first. I'd like us to take a 'backup' role. I think thats the way we are heading anyway. I'm still hopeful that it may not come to us being involved but we shall have to see what happens.

	06-11-2003 04:41									#26
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Backup is good. Makes sense considering the turn order too, since GoW goes before us.

I too hope we don't have to get involved, but we may have to finish off the GS stack depending on how the RNG goes for GoW. At least that might be disguisable; if it's all FoW to them, all they'll know is we declared war.