03-11-2003 10:10									#1
	Which Tech Next? Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Instead of making this a poll, we'll just keep reusing this thread every time a tech discussion comes up.

We're nearly done with Writing. As we'll be the only ones with Writing, I reccomend that we research one of the writing techs:

Philosophy, Code of Laws, Literature, Mapmaking.

My preference is Mapmaking. What do you guys think?

--Togas

	03-11-2003 20:26									#2
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I like map making as well. We can use galleys to explore the coast and it as a nice wonder (if we ever get to building wonders). We might be able to find the other civs. Trading maps will also be useful so we can focus on the right places to explore. On the other hand, Phil and CoL lead to Republic and Lit gives libraries to help research.

The lost civs on average are better than the ones on our continent. It could be from luxuries or techs. They may have done better with huts than our group did. We went for Pottery and IW before Writing. One of the lost civs may have headed straight for Writing and could already be researching LIt or Map. We appear to be the tech leader on our continent but we may not be the tech leader over all.

We still need Math, HB, and Poly. Do we know if other civs are researching those?

	04-11-2003 02:00									#3
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If we want to be a peaceful Civ, then we need to be ahead in the reseach depeartment to prevent ourselves from being a target. Literature allows us to build Libraries which are at half cost to us. We might also consider building the GL; one part of a wonder we'd need for a peaceful GA. MapMaking can come next followed by CoL and Philosophy then Republic.

	04-11-2003 02:50									#4
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I'd like to see literature first. That can help us get a lead in tech. Further down the line, Republic is nice for the builder. So those are my two cents.

	04-11-2003 06:25									#5
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BF, I assume you mean the Great Library since you were talking about Literature. I do not see much value in that wonder. In the other DG game everyone pretty much traded techs around so it was not hard to get them. By staying at the front of the research race we will always have techs other teams will want so we can easily trade with them. The Great Library is only useful when you know other civs and they have techs that they will not trade to you. With our goal of being friendly, I do not see us getting into that situation any time soon and that wonder does not last that long. At best we could get one or two techs. There are better wonders to build. The only way I see getting real value out of that wonder is for the lost civs to be ahead of us in research and we find them before the wonder expires.

	04-11-2003 06:58									#6
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I'm more interested in getting one half of the wonders needed for a peaceful GA than anything else. But, the wonder itself is not without its own benefits. Sure we'll get to the techs at about the same pace if we just 'trade' along with everyone. But, we also go to 0% research and save gold for future use. Lets say we save 3,000-4,000 gold in this way. That can be used in deficit spending/research after the effects of the Great Library wear off. This allows for a research 'spurt' unavailable to the other teams. If you play it right, the effects of the Great Library can be had well beyond Education.

As far as getting only one or two techs from it....we can get them all up till Education from it, we don't have to research anything. The key to the Great Library is to get it built ASAP and to get contact with at least 2 other Civ's. We have contact with 3. Hopefully we can contact even more. As long as we promise not to sell or trade any techs gotten from the Great Library, the other teams won't be upset with us.

	04-11-2003 07:08									#7
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If we are the tech leader then changing to no research and using the Great Library to stay just behind the other civs will hurt the overall research rate of our continent. Also, since we will not be trading techs with other civs they will form deals and stronger relationships with other civs than with us. That will impact us after the wonder expires, and possibly before then in other ways.

I am not worried about triggering the GA. I think it wouldn't be too hard to make a deal with another civ to fight a small skirmish to trigger each other's GA.

	04-11-2003 07:25									#8
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You are missing the point. We can be tech leaders 'after' the effects of the Great Library wear off. It will cost us alot to stay as leaders on this continent, even with Libraries. There's 4 teams here as of now; only 3 legit pathways to follow. Once we get to the Middle ages it's worse, there's only two choices for us once we get there (since we get a free tech). With minimal research paths to choose from and 4 teams to do research, that means there will be some overlap. If we have the Great Library, we won't have that problem. We can save our cash and do 4-6 turn research on techs like GunPowder, Prinitng Press and Democracy. People seriously undervalue the Great Library, I've never really understood why. Maybe they continue to research instead of saving the gold. :shrugs:

Also, our Continent will do just fine. There's 7 teams altogether. With 4 on this Continent, there can only be, at most, 3 on the other. So if 3 do reaerch here, and 3 do resaerch there, the Continents will remain equal. Where we get the advantage is after the Great Library is negated and we start to do heavy research and then sell that research to fund even more research. It's a cycle that will keep us in the lead for a long while.

	04-11-2003 12:25									#9
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I like literature as we're scientific and can build libraries quick-like ... but there's no reason to build libraries early if we plan to build THE library.

We'd also need to set aside a city for the wonder. Which city would it be? If we do go for a quick literature gambit, we need to start wonderbuilding (prebuilding?) sooner rather than later ... which city will we give up for wonderbuilding? Can we afford to lose a city this early in the game when we're desperately behind on our SEX plans?

IF we can come up with a decent plan to quickly get the Great Library up and running, I'm intregued by the idea. If we can't, then I say we get Mapmaking and trade MM to everyone for their WMs and a bit of gold. We already have diplomatic connections and future trades set up to virtually cover all of the tech we need. If we keep up at this rate with some active trading, we'll be in the middle ages in 40 turns!

--Togas

	04-11-2003 12:29									#10
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Just in case I wasn't clear, my vote is for Mapmaking ... but I'll change my vote to Literature if I can be convinced that a Great Library project is worth investing in.

--Togas

	04-11-2003 20:55									#11
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BF, I do understand. I build the Great Library almost all the time in my SP games. The AI doesn't remember things like you did not trade with them for 100 turns but teams will. I don't know how much of a difference that will make in relations. One thing that surprised in in the first PTWDG game is how long it went before a wonder was completed. Even though cities started building wonders in the middle of the Ancient Age no wonder was completed until the Middle Age (or close to it). Humans put more money into research than the AI does so research goes quicker in team games. A lot of research will go by during those turns waiting for the Great Library to get built. If we continue research or trading techs we reduce the value of the wonder. If we stop research and trading techs we are gambling that we will get the wonder. If we do not get it we will be in a deep whole and the gold saved may or may not be enough to buy us out of it. Is it worth the gamble and the unknown affects of not trading with other teams for so long? I don't know. I think Map Making is a better bet.

	04-11-2003 21:58									#12
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With LL, MAST, and Tabemono all starting to cooperate right now and each researching their own path ... the techs are going to move extremely fast. Our strength as the only Scientific Civ is that we get free techs anyhow at the age changes, and that we can easily build libraries (and should build them for culture if nothign else). We also have an ideal techtrading position as the most friendly civ around.

The GL would be helpful if we were in other situations, with a different civ and with different opponents. In our current situation I don't think it's worth much to us. I think other wonders, like the Great Wall, Hanging Gardens, or Pyramids(!!) would serve us much better.

--Togas

	05-11-2003 12:43									#13
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I humbly disagree with your assesment HarryH. If we never traded techs aquired by the GL, the the other Civs won't be mad at us. They become mad when you undercut their research and attempt to recoup some gold for it. We are in the perfect situation for the GL. I won't argue any further....

	05-11-2003 19:18									#14
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Do we know what the other civs are researching?

Edit: LL is going for Poly and MAST is going for Phil or CoL. Do we know what Tab is researching?

Last edited by HarryH on 05-11-2003 at 19:43

	05-11-2003 23:57									#15
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I think Tabemono is going for Math, but I need to ask them again.

At this time, my opinion remains that we should research Mapmaking next.

--Togas

	06-11-2003 01:14									#16
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I read through the FR: Tab thread. We have a deal where we gave them IW and they give us Math. So I assume they have done a lot of research on Math by now. I wonder how close they are to completing it. If we pop that hut we will get either Phil or Math. If they are close to getting Math I would rather not get Math from the hut. Can we find out quickly from Tab when they will have Math?

	06-11-2003 02:59									#17
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MM

--Woog