18-11-2003 07:07									#31
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by solo Elephant, General direction is usually good enough, and pointed me to a trireme route via the Indians in these games, although some black clicking may be needed to confirm exact routes.

I black-clicked a bit and wasted about 10 turns trying to get to the Americans or the Aztecs from that little island west of the SSC before giving up and exploring toward the Indians.

Your Size 12 experiment was interesting. I found that size very nice as well; perhaps all the effort toward growing larger could have significantly shortened the arrival gap. Then again, I was relying on getting up to 50 shields for 1-turn freights and completing spaceship parts (although I have done it with 30 shields, as long as I have a big stockpile of freights: 50-60!).

I did not have much trouble with alliances in this game. When I first asked for them I got all six within four turns - I was Pathetic or Weak at the time, I think. Keeping them was just an exercise in keeping tabs on their attitudes. They were not a fruitful as yours (after I had Newtons I did not ask much, just keep an eye on their research), and my Power Level did rise up to Mighty at a couple points, which hurt the gifting.

The other major difference was in Barbs: I had no trouble in the BC years, and very little trouble later on. One "partisan outbreak" that was a fizzle: they headed north! A couple times I bribed a unit to go after the Leader but gave up as they were moving away too fast. The only real trouble I had was at sea: I lost a Frigate with Dye freight aboard to a pirate that spawned only a couple kliks north of me.

	18-11-2003 15:03									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

In my experience, I never seem to get cash gifted when I've got loads, but solo seems to have been able to cash in two huge freight deliveries, and then get more from the AI despite not obviously spending a ton too (building a freight on the next turn).
Maybe the AI on my system remember some of the evil things I've done to them in games long past....

	20-11-2003 20:33									#33
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Elephant,

An interesting game and very detailed log, plus a good result. I did not seem to gain any advantage over you by using size one settler either.

It was in my earlier EL game that the barbs were so bothersome, and not so much in OCC.

With size 12, there are fewer things to build and you can skip Sanitation, Refrigeration & Robotics. You can make up for the lack of shields by just building caravans/freights. A lower power rating also means almost unlimited income from gifts, too.

Duke,

Yes, I was lucky that a small AI city was demanding gold, allowing many repeat deliveries for a lot of cash. This is probably what let me beat Elephant's date.

The key to getting gifts is having a lower power rating than that of the civ you are begging from. With size 12 in OCC, it was easy to be pathetic or weak, which kept most civs eligible as donors.

However, you are right that it can get more difficult to collect when you have a lot of gold because gold is one of the factors that goes into the power rating calculation. My horde of gold made me Inadequate once (but this takes a lot of gold), and kept me at Weak fairly often during the game, so I was always able to collect from somewhere at all times.

Last edited by solo on 20-11-2003 at 20:45

	21-12-2003 21:34									#34
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ELCG 6
Medium Map, English, 775 AD Landing

I finally finished my Early Landing Game. In this game a tried to use a broader approach on a medium map. The start was difficult with unhappyness slowing down the expansion. But once everything was ready the game went very well and ended with a 775 AD Landing. The log:

4000 London
3750 Alphabet, second settler clears forest on SSC site
3500 SSC founded, renamed to Liverpool
3350 Code of Laws
2900 Bronce Working, Nottingham
2800 Barbarians North of Liverpool, production changed to Phalanx
2500 CB
2400 Fortified Warrior on Mountain looses to Barb Archer, London rushbuilds Phalanx
2250 Liverpool Phalanx survives
2100 Hastings
2050 Monarchy (oedo rev)
1950 Canterbury
1700 Currency
1650 Coventry
1550 Warwick
1300 Trade
1200 Newcastle, Oxford
1000 Birmingham

875 MPE, Celts (mighty) trade for Writing Cartography, peace maps, Indians (strong) trade for Mystizism, peace maps give techs, Zulu peace maps give Monarchy, French peace maps, give Monarchy, Aztecs, peace maps, give Monarchy, Americans peace maps give Monarchy Alliance no gift

775 Literacy
575 HG, Dover (11th)
525 trade for Republic,
500 dye to Bombay 120g
475 Philosophy, Medicine,
400 Brighton (12th)
375 Norvich (13th)
300 trade for Mathematics
275 Colossus, Monotheism, gems to Bombay (d) 200g
225 Republic established
200 Astronomy, silk London Bombay (d) 346g
175 trade for seafaring
150 Michelangeloīs
125 Banking, 11 cities celebrating, silk Warwick Delhi (d) 228g, trade for Masonry, Leeds (14th)
100 trade for The Wheel, beads to Delhi (d) 416g
75 SSC size 8 copper Nottingham Madras (d) 176g, silk to Madras (d) 433g
50 Engineering
25 SSC Aqueduct
AD
1 Shakes, SSC celebrating
40 Trade for University
80 size 12, silk Coventry Bapedi (d) 408g, wine Warwick Delhi (d) 280g
100 Sanitation, SSC sewer system, Reading, a colony, (15th)
120 Copernicus, Portsmouth, a colony (16th)
160 Bridge Building, SSC Library
180 gold to Tenochtitlan (d) 480g
200 Theory of Gravity, SSC University, dye to Ulundi (d) 537g
220 Chemistry, silk Hastings Ulundi (d) 456g, Indians get Invention from hut, trade for Invention
240 INC, Economics, salt to London 42g, dye, gold available again,
260 size 21, Gun Powder, trade for Navigation
280 Richmond Col, (17th)
300 Democracy (oedo rev), dye Birmingham Delhi (d) 104g, silver Canterbury Madras (d) 205g, beads Canterbury Tenochtitlan 80g
320 Explosives
340 gems Norvich SSC (d) 405g

360 size 26, Celebration stops, with more terrain changes size 28 would have been possible, but at the cost of one turn, other cities size 8 (3), 7 (2) 6 (2) 5 (5), 3 or less (3), 1 tech/turn possible, Physics, silk Brighton SSC (d) 444g

380 Atomic Theory, Steam Engine, 2 techs a turn before Automobile is rare

400 Magnetism, dye to Bombay (d) 528g

420 Railroad,

440 Metallurgy, Barbarian Caravel passes Coventry and heads for Bombay, gems London Liverpool (d) 92g, science 1101 needed 1056

460 Darwins, Industrialization, Corporation

480 Electricity, coal Warwick Delhi (d) 195g

500 Refinery, gold to Bapedi (d) 768g, the first delivery to the Zulu after reestablishing a ship line, wine transformation complete, SSC at sc. 834, total 1142, needed 1152, science adjusted

520 Steel, Celts, give Industrialization, Economics stolen, Combustion, gems Nottingham Bapedi (d) 378g, trade for Feudalism

540 Automobile, Exeter (18th), silk Canterbury Tintagel (d) 324g, beads to Teotihuacan (d) 696g, trade for Horse Riding, coal Reading SSC (d) 400g,

560 Electronics, Chivalry, SSC, Dover, Reading superhighways, Cambridge (19th), silk Dover Ulundi (d) 756g, oil to Bapedi 744g

580 Leadership, Mass Production, transcontinental railroad completed, Warwick Portsmouth superhighways, coal Portsmouth SSC (d) 912g, dye Warwick Ulundi (d) 522g

600 Conscription, Tactics, Newcastle, Brighton, Nottingham superhighways, gems to Tintagel (d) 1022g, gold warwick Bapedi (d) 756g, dye Liverpool Madras (d) 256g, silk Newcastle Delhi (d) 414,

620 Nuclear Fission, Machine Tools, Exeter, Leeds, Norvich, Birmingham, London superhighways, Gloucester (20th), oil Exeter SSC (d) 1057g, beads to Zimbabwe (d) 1057g, silk Leeds Bapedi (d) 548g, trade is very good, I decide to build SETI and to delay flight one turn to get more trade, earliest possible launch is 760

640 Nuclear Power, Miniturization, Cambridge superhighways, silk Warwick bapedi (d) 756g, oil Portsmouth SSC (d) 1134g, gems to Norvich (d) 1120g, science to zero

660 Computers, Manchester (21st), Bristol (22nd), gems Newcastle Cardiff (d) 540g, coal Birmingham Ulundi (d) 412g, silver Oxford Zimbabwe (d) 220g, beads demand unblocked, beads to Zimbabwe (d) 1152g, coal Exeter SSC (d) 890g, silk Birmimgham Bapedi (d) 468g

680 Flight, Radio, SETI Program, wine Nottinham Bapedi (d) 426g, Leicester (23rd), oil Norvich SSC (d) 691g, silk Cambridge London (d) 299g, silk Portsmouth London (d) 320g,

700 Advanced Flight, Laser, Barb frigate approaches Oxford, landing blocked, Carlisle (24th), gems to Bapedi (d) 1158g, gold Warwick Bapedi (d) 504g, dye Leeds Hlobane (d) 184g,

720 Rocketry, Space Flight, beads to Teotihuacan (d) 664g, wine Norvich Teotihuacan (d) 280g, gold London Norvich (d) 327g, wine Leeds Brighton (d) 227g, gems Dover Norvich (d) 355g, trade for Warrior Code,

740 Plastics, Superconductor, Apollo Program, Manchester Superhighways, coal Manchester SSC (d) 516g, wine Birmingham Teotihuacan (d) 225g, beads Dover Cardiff (d) 364g, gold Cambridge London (d) 320g, I have enough freights and cash, no selling of improvements or dissolving of units needed

760 Fusion Power, Launch (15-3-3-1-1-1)

775 AC Landing

Zenon

Attachment: sc_a0760.sav
This has been downloaded 5 time(s).

	21-12-2003 22:07									#35
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Zenon

Beautiful game. I enjoyed your robust approach.

Monk

	21-12-2003 22:14									#36
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Zenon,

I have downloaded your save and will take a look. Again, congrats on a very impressive game.

After my "official" game in which I used early Republic, I continued experimenting by playing several more practice games using this start. I tried several variations of your strategy, the first time with a landing in 915, the second time with a landing similar to yours in the 700's and by the third attempt had managed my best date yet of 575 BC.

Of course replays do not count, but they did demonstrate to me that a big expansion with the emphasis on the economy first is a superior strategy to that of a lean and mean early Republic. In my 575 game I managed two instances of 2 techs a turn before Automobile and foresee the possibility of making this happen more often in future games. Thanks to the insights by SG(2), Monk, Cliff, yourself and by Slow Thinker, I have become a convert to this style of EL play, and will be updating my guide when I have a chance to reflect these advances in strategy.

Again, another great game. Well done.

Last edited by solo on 21-12-2003 at 22:49

	22-12-2003 00:19									#37
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Solo,

I hope you make changes to the "Guide" additive rather than by revision. This robust approach by Zenon and a few others definitely merits inclusion, and in some instances, especially where very early Republic is out of the question due to map considerations, this approach is probably superior.

But, one thing I feel should be emphasized is the value of subtle understanding of the game that comes from learning the spare approach. It really requires one to think carefully so as not to make sequense errors and thereby lose tempo. I learned a great deal from our early discussions about early landing games.

The pivotal difference between the two theories of development, in my opinion, is the tradeoff--in time--between more settlers (for early growth) and early trade (for the science boost). And the second, which flows from the first, is dealing efficiently with the resulting unhappiness problems. All those early colonies trading with the SSC are very sweet--two tech turns before superhighways!!

This has been a very interesting process for which we all say Thank You, Solo.

Monk

	22-12-2003 03:11									#38
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Monk,

I used to I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment, but now I think the number of cities is the key factor, and have become convinced that having more is best and that there is plenty of time to build the extra settlers needed for this expansion. In my best replay, I had established 18 cities by 500 BC vs. the usual 8 at that time when using a lean early Republic.

The result is almost twice as much caravan production, resulting in more trades and allowing the construction of additional wonders such as HG, MC and even Leonardo's. More cities also means more raw science, more colonies, and more diversity in what is produced. With fewer cities, trade was often delayed so that cities could build transports, engineers, or wonders.

With fewer cities I found it was either feast or famine depending on how trade was going, with the periods of famine even in my most successful 615 AD game. In my 575 game, I actually turned off science after Trade was discovered to make more gold from taxes. Techs came just as quickly from AI trades (by using MPE) and from the additional commodity deliveries made possible from having more cities. It wasn't until the AD years, after we love growth was completed, that cities were used more for science.

The clincher for me is that I could beat the 615 record in a game having a poorer SSC site and with just average luck. With ideal SSC, helper and colony sites and with excellent trading opportunities, a lean early Republic still may be the best option, but for me, trying "robust" was believing. With the EL #6 start, which was a very good one, there was no comparison. Robust beat out lean Republic very handily. Zenon deserves a lot of credit for demonstrating this during his last few games.

Oh, and I don't feel bad that others have pointed out the best strategy, because I think I've already found a few ways to make it work even better! That 500 AD barrier will fall!

Last edited by solo on 22-12-2003 at 03:26

	22-12-2003 04:59									#39
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quote: Originally posted by solo That 500 AD barrier will fall!

With this ambition I am sure it will! And 575 is very impressive even for a replay!

Thanks for the comments, Monk and Solo! In the AD years my game was indeed running very well. With 2 times 2 techs a turn before automobile and constant 2 techs after that until the landing it was at the limit, I think. I had 14 cities in 1 AD and that was just enough. To keep the tech pace I had to plan trade carefully and with lesser trade opportunities it wouldnīt have worked so well. 2 or 3 more cities would have been safer and easier. But in the BC years I could have done better in expanding and also failed to build Shakes earlier. Starting celebration at size 8 in 1 AD was to late.

Generally speaking, there are still 2 valuable approaches for a medium map. The decision which one is best depends on the quality of the SSC and also on the possibilities for early expansion. If the SSC is weak, more cities are the only way to catch up. If the SSC is very good and the expansion possibilities are limited early republic is still the choice. Early colonies can help but they have to be in the general direction of your trading partners. The number of ship lines you can establish is limited, too.

Letīs see what we can do in ELG 7!

Zenon

	22-12-2003 19:52									#40
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I'm not going to finish this by the end of the month. But I do plan to finish & write this up in early January. (I'll be out of town for the holidays -- & will be missing out on prime civ time...)

	22-12-2003 20:01									#41
	Support Apolyton

Old & Slow,

No problem. I'll wait for your finish before posting results. With the holidays, I expect other finishes to be delayed, too.

Zenon,

If you have found a good EL start and would like to post one for EL #7, please go ahead, as I am anxious to challenge you using your own strategies!

	22-12-2003 20:17									#42
	Inflate your Upload Space

I'm sure that this has been mentioned before, but how about an early conquest? We could alternate them by month, and it would give those who do not usually join the EL games the chance to join in. Obviously, the speed of conquest would depend upon what kind of map it was, where you started and (obviously) whether restart civs was on (No! ), but since we'd only be competing amongst ourselves, then no one conquest could set any records, just how many years you were behind the winner each game. The person with the lowest score then is the champion.

This could be combined with the EL games so that points are given for the number of years behind the winner people get conquest and landings alternately.

This is just an idea, and I realise it will have been suggetsed before and rejected, but if anyone would like to play an early conquest then contact me, and if there's enough demand I'll load a game up. Or ask someone with 2.42 to do it!

	23-12-2003 20:04									#43
	Increase Your PM Length

I limped in in 1777.

My preliminary thought was that my favorite Size 1 settler strategy will probably not be best this game. Although it might be advantageous to build roads and stuff and prepare the SSC site, that would give 3 cities by about 3200 BC, as opposed to 4 cities at about 2900 BC. I decided to found on the current site and build 2nd city fast on the river. My plan: 8 cities ASAP, then check to see whether there is available terrain. They were all to be groomed to size 12.

This plan did not work for me. My mid-game execution is admittedly haphazard, but even the seemingly promising early game (where I usually am more confident) was a horrid mess due to bad infrastructure decisions - I never got a really efficient civilization, and 1-turn advances only came after Automobile.

Launch 1762
Arrive AC 1777 AD

Monarchy 2250BC
Republic 825 BC. Too early to use! the production would be a killer. I waited for the Chapel.
Republican Government: 140AD
Demo 540AD

Trade 1700BC (Should have been good, but production was so bad that I got no advantage.)
Construction 700BC
Sanitation 420 AD
Navigation 800 AD
Automobile 1520 AD

Wonders:
MPE 1300 Got about 6 techs through MPE at various times.
HG 675
Colossus 225 BC
MC 1 AD
Shakes 580AD
Leos 860AD
INC 1120 AD
Darwin 1500 Ad
Apollo 1754 AD


SSC size 12 320AD
SSC size 21 860 AD
Max SSC size 28 1770AD

SSCTrade route 1 300 BC (others soon after)

	24-12-2003 19:54									#44
	Got spare money?

Grigor,

Usually when a game starts poorly for me, the trend continues and in others everything just seems to click. BTW, MPE Mac is in the mail.

Duke,

Conquest sounds like fun, and combining it with EL might be a new alternative that is fun. As before, if you need to have an MGE start converted, I'll be happy to do it for you.

	29-12-2003 16:00									#45
	Landing 1576AD Remove this text

Here is the summary:

Governments:

Monarchy: 2050BC
Republic: 225BC
Democracy: 700AD
Communism: 1556AD

Wonders:

Marco: 1100BC
Colossus: ?
HG: ?
Shakespeare: 225BC
Copernicus: 180AD
Mike: 340AD
Isaac: 520AD
Darwin: 800AD
Apollo: 1480AD

SSC Stats:

Size 8: 50BC
Size 12: 40AD
Size21: 520AD
Size max = 31

Techs:

Trade: 1450BC
Invention: ?
RR: ?
Automobile: 1040AD
Nuclear Power: 1320AD
Computers: 1340AD
Flight: 1400AD
Space Flight: 1440AD


The repeated Hides offered in Liverpool (SSC) and demanded in Delhi was very useful. I played the end game much too quickly (should have landed about 40 years sooner with more careful planning during the last 12 turns or so).

But I knew I was well behind the Master (solo) and the Specialists (Zenon and Elephant)
... and well ahead of the other games posted up to now

My pride: #1 of those who play without helper programs

Attachment: sc_auto.sav
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	30-12-2003 15:58									#46
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Nice game, La Fayette!

I wonder how you managed to leave this home continent without black clicking. IIRC there was just one way over the ocean towards the Indians: westward like Columbus

One day I will try your style, but not in an Early Landing Game.

Zenon

	30-12-2003 19:27									#47
	Re: Landing 1576AD Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette But I knew I was well behind the Master (solo) and the Specialists (Zenon and Elephant)...

Hardly - Solo beat me with his Size-12 city!

	30-12-2003 20:40									#48
	Put an end to popups!

La Fayette,

Unfortunately, the save you posted reveals little about your accomplishment. One closer to launch might have been a better choice.

Monk

	30-12-2003 20:40									#49
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Not bad, La Fayette, and close to the best results in the earlier EL games. Give EL #7 a try. There are so many perfect city sites on Zenon's map, you may be even able to flirt with 1000 AD without helper programs!

Elephant, I am afraid credit goes to Samson (as usual) for first noticing that smaller is sometimes more efficient in OCC games. However, bigger sized OCC cities add more variety to the game and are much more fun to play and manage. It's gets boring to always be begging for gold when at size 12.

	30-12-2003 21:15									#50
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...and even more so at Size 1 - I played a couple of those a while back, and there is really nothing else to do...

	31-12-2003 04:23									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Zenon Nice game, La Fayette! I wonder how you managed to leave this home continent without black clicking. Zenon

Marco

	01-01-2004 18:20									#52
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette Marco

Yes, stupid question, itīs in your log. But now I see why you built it so early!

You should try ELCG #7. Itīs fun. And I promise you will land a few hundred years earlier.

Zenon

	02-01-2004 01:37									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Zenon You should try ELCG #7. Itīs fun. And I promise you will land a few hundred years earlier. Zenon

I'll certainly try #7, even without any hope of pre-1000 landing