07-11-2003 16:13									#31
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I don't believe that I ever disagreed with you that dictatorial regimes can and quite often do have a low crime rate.

Agreed, but I thought that you were attributing China's low crime rate to police tactics - an assertion I believe to be mistaken. At least that's what I thought you meant when you wrote "No ****. If you wish to give the police the power to torture prisoners and whatnot here, we could do the same thing." Did you actually mean something else?

quote: I just have a limit on how much freedom I'm willing to sacrifice for security.

As I've said before, I think most westerners have a very distorted view of how much freedom Chinese feel they are missing out on. Ask a typical Chinese citizen if they are "oppressed" and they will usually respond with incredulity or even laughter. The notion of "freedom" is very much subject to societal values. The Chinese have values different than those of the west. If you judge their freedoms by western standards, you will arrive at a false conclusion.

My point: from their POV, they've traded little freedom for an enviable level of security.

	07-11-2003 21:12									#32
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by mindseye Agreed, but I thought that you were attributing China's low crime rate to police tactics ... Did you actually mean something else?

I meant what I said. I do believe that is part of the answer to the question of China's low crime rate.

quote: Ask a typical Chinese citizen if they are "oppressed" and they will usually respond with incredulity or even laughter.

What answer would I get if I asked a member of a house church or even an independent journalist like Wang Dan?

	07-11-2003 21:22									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

A large part of China's problem is its military spending. I wonder what the budget of that is relative to the GDP. Thats what ultimately crippled the USSR, after all.

	07-11-2003 21:23									#34
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

yep.

*sigh*

	08-11-2003 04:07									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I meant what I said.

Oh, in that case, I think you're wrong. For that (low crime in China due to police tactics) to be true , there would have to be many more cops, more arrests, and people would have to be concerned over their tactics. None of these are true. In fact, in the same way that many (I think about 75%) of them avidly support the death penalty, Chinese usually think the "bad eggs" had it coming.

quote: quote: Ask a typical Chinese citizen if they are "oppressed" and they will usually respond with incredulity or even laughter. What answer would I get if I asked a member of a house church or even an independent journalist like Wang Dan?

Uh, in that case you'd get a different answer. I said "typical" Chinese (and believe me, when you are talking about "herd critters" like the Chinese, "typical" carries a lot more weight than in the US). I don't think I'd have to go beyond this forum to find an American or two who think the US is a fascist police state. However, they would be far from "typical" Americans. In other words, your question is without meaningful content.

By the way, please don't confuse my reporting of what I believe Chinese think and feel with my own opinions. I'm just trying to explain how the world looks from their perspective (it is after all, their country). If you don't take their perspective into account, you cannot hope to understand or accurately assess China.

	08-11-2003 04:50									#36
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins A large part of China's problem is its military spending. I wonder what the budget of that is relative to the GDP. Thats what ultimately crippled the USSR, after all.

What "problem" are you referring to - pollution, the thread topic?

Personally, I think a lot of their military spending (like military spending anywhere) is a waste, but I suppose Beijing sees modernization of the military as a required component of great power status. It's probably also the easiest way to defuse the hardliners and influential generals (and in that respect may be worth every yuan).

If you are talking about pollution, I think a far larger part of China's "problem" is official corruption, followed by an easily manipulated legal system and a press largely controlled by the government. The former is a millenia-old Chinese malady, the latter two are symptoms of a greater problem, namely a form of government largely unaccountable to the people.