07-11-2003 19:02									#31
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf mountain sage (fellow citizen ) i think some breakaway guys got the a$$e$ kicked in MP against some sid-level-warmongers like arrian and could bare the defeat. so they changed the rules

I just don't care about the reasons, as long as the Civ3 gods made war more 'expensive' and a PP game more 'attractive'.

I just these Civ 3 gods (for now...)

	07-11-2003 19:08									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus Except that those Pike to Musket upgrades are going to be even more expensive now.

So what? Gold is made for spending it (at least in Civ3...) and you can upgrade units only if you have gold enough. But war is not (by far) the best way to get this gold. Therefore.... a PP game with lots of gold....
If you can't get 1'200 gold/TURN on an Emperor game at the beginning of the Industrial Age, then something is terribly wrong with your playstyle...

	07-11-2003 23:42									#33
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Something else to keep in mind with respect to the 40->50 turn change, military upgrade change, is something I got burned on last night playing my first Conquests game. I didn't realize one of the government changes, mainly the additional upkeep of military under the Republic. I built The Statue of Zues, researched and switched to (I'm Religous) the Republic, traded for currency and now to research Fedualism (Babs alreadly have/won't trade) or Monotheism to remain profitable it will take 50 turns to accomplish. I may build some infrastructure and switch back to despotism until I'm able to trade for Monarchy.

	07-11-2003 23:57									#34
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I would also imagine the change in research would reduce the obsolescence rate of many units for at a few turns more.

	08-11-2003 00:59									#35
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quote: Originally posted by TheArsenal I would also imagine the change in research would reduce the obsolescence rate of many units for at a few turns more.

Along these lines, it seems as though the player (at Monarch level at least) has a greater opportunity to prolong the Ancient Age, if that's what he/she wants to do.

	08-11-2003 01:40									#36
	re: Cort arguing case for not penalising defensive upgrades Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Mountain Sage So what? Gold is made for spending it (at least in Civ3...) and you can upgrade units only if you have gold enough. But war is not (by far) the best way to get this gold. Therefore.... a PP game with lots of gold.... If you can't get 1'200 gold/TURN on an Emperor game at the beginning of the Industrial Age, then something is terribly wrong with your playstyle...

Well excuse me for not always reaping 1200gpt by the turn I ping Magnetism, MS I don't play huge maps, so the world economy doesn't support me that sort of income at that point. I'm surprised you let them get that close to you in economic power

Besides, why should I wait till near-Nationalism before upgrading my Pikes? I want them before they can bring on their knight divisions, let alone cav.

Gold is made for spending - on mkts and unis preferably, but in that era I like to thrash the commerce on science mainly. The double-cost upgrade is there to nerf the mass offensive upgrade which we all use so mercilessly against the AI. If, as you say, the Civ 3 gods were really smiling at us PP-ers (and they have done, it seems, to an extent), they'd limit the extra upgrade cost to offensive units. How will the poor AI upgrade it's feeble defenses now?

	08-11-2003 02:39									#37
	Re: re: Cort arguing case for not penalising defensive upgrades Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus If, as you say, the Civ 3 gods were really smiling at us PP-ers (and they have done, it seems, to an extent), they'd limit the extra upgrade cost to offensive units. How will the poor AI upgrade it's feeble defenses now?

A very good point. I haven't yet had time to launch a full-scale upgrade/offensive, but I plan too, and to see if the major cost overhaul is too extreme.

I mean, I make a LOT of money in every Conquests game I play for about 10 minutes... a lot more than I did playing the same length of time in PTW... and still get a tech lead (or don't fall far behind). I think it might still be feasible.

I do worry about agressive AIs with the agricultural trait, however...

	10-11-2003 17:41									#38
	Re: re: Cort arguing case for not penalising defensive upgrades Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus Well excuse me for not always reaping 1200gpt by the turn I ping Magnetism, MS I don't play huge maps, so the world economy doesn't support me that sort of income at that point. I'm surprised you let them get that close to you in economic power

this pic is just to make some people jalous. It's from Sir Ralph's game. There is a glitch in the game: I don't get any interests for Smith TC, but then the accountant has probably problems with the 5% over my 1'000 gold...

	10-11-2003 20:05									#39
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I had a game going that was very similar to the screen shot above. It just goes to show what you can do with germany, or any other scientific civ. They can make tons of cash and keep many people happy through tech trading.

	10-11-2003 20:15									#40
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MS, how many cities have you got? and are you researching every tech at 4 turns/tech? and which difficulty and world size?

i guess best trait combo for your economic power would be commercial & scientific (so korea and greece). surprisingly, the AI tends to handle these civs quite well.

personally, i think scientific is too weak... the advantages are too small in comparison to other traits and the effect only kicks in late ancient, early medieval ages. by then you're either going to win anyway or your hopelessly behind
but for c3c it might be worth a try. scientific great leaders appear more often, so a to be the first to every tech is a quite appreciable situation

	10-11-2003 23:28									#41
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MS SMiths does not give you 5%, you have to build Wall Street. That requires at least 5 banks.

	11-11-2003 00:07									#42
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Yep, the glitch is in your memory, not the game.

Also, the 5% is capped at a maximum of 50 gold/turn.

quote: Gold is made for spending it

So what are you sitting on 14798 gold for? Surely you can spend a bunch of that.

-Arrian

	11-11-2003 01:23									#43
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quote: give you 5%, you have to build Wall Street. That requires at least 5 banks.

Wasn't that changed in PTW? Don't you need 5 trademarkets? (or whatever it is called)
-

quote: So what are you sitting on 14798 gold for? Surely you can spend a bunch of that.

My idea exactly, I hardly ever have more then a 1000 in the bank. Rush...rush...rush !!!!

	11-11-2003 02:28									#44
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Yes it changed to stock markets.

	11-11-2003 10:07									#45
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quote: My idea exactly, I hardly ever have more then a 1000 in the bank. Rush...rush...rush !!!!

I'm too lazy to rush-build

	11-11-2003 16:57									#46
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Replies to everybody (including my fellow citizen):

You're right: the glitch is in my head: Smith TC pays for all trade-related city improvements. By now, I have Wall Street.

This is Sir Ralph's game (his thread 'By By PTW'): Huge, Emperor, Germany, continents, 24 civs.

The militaristic and scientific traits are irrelevant in this game. I could have afforded to pay all my barracks and harbours 100% of their price without putting a dent in my stockpile of gold (BTW, I don't have Sun Tsu, I only have Leo). As for a free tech each Age, I already had a 2 techs advance by the end of the Ancient Times.

My income is the direct consequence of 'clever' trading and building all gold-bringing improvements.
If only I had the French or Carthage ...

I have now about 40 cities (should count them one day) because I got 3 Russian cities (declared war and expanded a bit south) and conquered all of England in 2 wars (they declared war 2 times).

I am researching at 6 round/tech (the min. in this game is 5 round).

I sit on all this cash (by now I have about 48'000 gold) just because:

1. I still trade every 2-3 turns and milk all other civs dry (just to keep practice, that is).
2. I have a not-too-large military (108 Cavalry 1 + 1 Infantry/city).
3. I'd like to top my previous record of gold before I finish the game.
4. I can't rush anything else. My core cities are building cavalry, which is disbanded in my fringe cities. If I were to rush improvements in my fringe cities, I'd had to put my core cities on wealth...

No 2 civ is (was) England and no 3 is (still) Spain (all on my continent, which includes Rome (pitiful), the Celts (lost a war with the English, down to 1 island, Russia (average) and Carthage (I think, long gone). For once the the AI managed to play these 2 civs very well.

I hope to finish this game by next Monday, so I'll post mome pics and comments on my 'Emperor games' thread.

	11-11-2003 18:51									#47
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Ok, back to the original topic of the thread: 50-turn techs.

I played a game as the Maya last night until nearly the end of the middle ages. I did research 1 tech at 50-turn pace: Republic.

I researched something (the wheel?) off the bat for trading, and then went straight for philosophy. I chose CoL as my free tech, and then chose Republic, at 10%. I was still easily first to it, and my gold reserves came in handy for a few rushbought temples and 12 warrior -> medieval infantry upgrades.

-Arrian

	11-11-2003 19:21									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian ... figuring that I'll be popping lots of huts and the one tech I DO NOT want is Horseback Riding. -Arrian

Arrian,

Just curious, why don't you want Horseback riding at that point in the game? I play monarch as well.

	11-11-2003 19:34									#49
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I typically avoid HBR as long as I can, for two reasons:

1) so I can built 20-shield chariots for upgrade; and
2) because HBR doesn't cost much to research, and so when I do want it, I can typically pound it out fast.

With the upgrade cost change in Conquests (3g/shield instead of 2g/shield), I may ponder the usefulness of a mass chariot->horse upgrade. In my first C3C game, I didn't do it, but that was primarly because I had a LOT of REXing to do before I got anywhere near horses (let alone iron!! It was half a continent away!).

-Arrian

	11-11-2003 22:05									#50
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Oh I see thanks for the answer. Have to give that a try but at the new cost we'll have to see if it's worth it.

BTW check out my post in the "Changes to the AI" thread under conquests. I had a similiar experience regarding hard to get resources.

	12-11-2003 18:06									#51
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Alexman wrote: "It's looking as if research in the Ancient age is back! I can't wait to receive my copy of C3C."

He's right. The 50-turn limit favours the AI in the ancient era powerfully and they now demand big bucks for formerly cheap techs. So, the turn research down and buy techs strat looks relatively unwise, based on a couple of games. Damn. I'll have to learn some new tricks.

	12-11-2003 22:32									#52
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It sure seems to require you to at least blast for one or two techs.
I played two ages yesterday and only the first tech I researched, was I first to learn. I never figured out why. I was the largest, seemed to have 1 or 2 techs more than anyone, got nearly all of the wonders? I got to the point were I have Copernicus and Nweton, universities and libs in most cities and still was never awarded a tech for being first? After I got Steam, I checked all the civs and none had any techs I did not have and I have at least one that they did not have, but I was not awarded a break though tech.

I figured in the ancient age, they may have had contacts that I did not, but after I had all contact ????
I can only presume that the scientific civs all got a different tech and traded it around. No science leader of course, but that was expected. I delibertly did not try to pick techs that would be unlikely to be chosen by the AI, I just took what made sense to me.