04-11-2003 19:52									#1
	50 turn techs Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

with c3c at the doorsteps in north america and 10 days away in europe, i want to ask a question to the great strategists around here:

what are the consequences of the new maximal tech research limit of 50 turns?

will a writing/literature-gambit still work and you can get the great library (without a perfect prebuild)?
can you still go for polytheism and trade it against all other 2nd and 3rd level techs?

this was a generally accepted and even recommended exploit (one of the few i use). it looks to me that the 25% longer research time will make it even harder on higher levels and makes it even harder to catch up.

of course i'd appreciate some of the beta testers impressions, too

	04-11-2003 19:56									#2
	Re: 50 turn techs Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf with c3c at the doorsteps in north america and 10 days away in europe, i want to ask a question to the great strategists around here: what are the consequences of the new maximal tech research limit of 50 turns? will a writing/literature-gambit still work and you can get the great library (without a perfect prebuild)? can you still go for polytheism and trade it against all other 2nd and 3rd level techs? this was a generally accepted and even recommended exploit (one of the few i use). it looks to me that the 25% longer research time will make it even harder on higher levels and makes it even harder to catch up. of course i'd appreciate some of the beta testers impressions, too

GL will be more important. Your best bet now will be to build that with Great Leader.

Should not make much of a difference in higher levels as best strategy there anyway is to turn science down to 10% and get techs thru trade.

	04-11-2003 21:18									#3
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Over the last few months I have grown more and more accustomed to doing max or near max research pretty frequently (on Emperor level). Even when I see Math will take 36 turns at max research, I have developed a much better feel for how long it will actually take after taking into account REXing growth during the upcoming turns. Rarely build the GLib anymore.

In answer to your questions, I for one won't know until I have C3C and give it a whirl

Catt

	04-11-2003 22:14									#4
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Like Catt, I've been doing a lot of flat-out research (though on Monarch). I have sometimes done writing at 40 turns (if commercial). That will most likely change.

I've also sometimes done 40-turn research on the wheel to start when I'm expansionist... figuring that I'll be popping lots of huts and the one tech I DO NOT want is Horseback Riding. The only problem with that is if I get unlucky with huts and only pop a few and/or get little tech out of those I do pop.

50 turns isn't a huge change, but it does make doing real research more desireable.

-Arrian

	04-11-2003 23:30									#5
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Research in the ancient age is also encouraged by the fact that Philosophy now provides a free tech to the first one to discover it (like it used to do in earlier versions of Civ).

At higher levels you can't even rely on Map and Communication trades to catch up on tech, because these abilities are moved to the Middle Ages.

Also, scientists now give 3 beakers each, so you actually waste research potential when researching a tech with a single scientist and 0% science.

And then there is the whole scientific leader concept. These scientific guys have a chance to go to the first civ to discover a tech, which is important since military great leaders can no longer rush great wonders!

It's looking as if research in the Ancient age is back! I can't wait to receive my copy of C3C.

Last edited by alexman on 04-11-2003 at 23:39

	04-11-2003 23:43									#6
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wow, are you sure military GL's can no longer rush wonders? that would change the way i play A LOT. It's cool to hear that philosophy gives you a free tech as well. (Almost makes me think about researching it now.... ). Scientific Leaders should be interesting but doesnt that mean that for every tech discovered someone has a chance of getting a SGL? or is it for only specific techs such as Theory of Gravity? should be interesting to find out. Looking forward to Conquests

	04-11-2003 23:48									#7
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Every tech gives a 3% chance of a SGL to the civ that first dicovers it (5% for scientific civs).

And yes, unless they changed it at the last moment, MGL can't rush great wonders (but they can rush small wonders and other improvements)

	05-11-2003 00:13									#8
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quote: Originally posted by alexman Every tech gives a 3% chance of a SGL to the civ that first dicovers it (5% for scientific civs). And yes, unless they changed it at the last moment, MGL can't rush great wonders (but they can rush small wonders and other improvements)

So what's the point of MGL now then? From over powered to useless... why would we ever play militaristic? If you can only use them to rush, say, the FP, you only need one or two for the whole game so no need to worry about elites and HE... With such a slim chance of getting a MGL why bother?

	05-11-2003 00:38									#9
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quote: With such a slim chance of getting a MGL why bother?

1. Because the FP is one of the main Wonders you want to rush with a Leader.

2. Because Armies are forces to be reckoned with now.

3. Because a slim chance is better than no chance (or lower chance, for non-Mil civs).


This is bound to be one of the more controversial changes in the game. I think it's great. Warmongering was too strong before, and there was little incentive to research before you were way ahead economically.

Mind you, there are IMO problems with the SGL concept, but in general it will be good for the game.


Dominae

	05-11-2003 01:13									#10
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wow, so imagine this very unlikely situation: you pop a hut which gives you philosophy which gives you another free tech... and that one might even give you a SGL.

but damn... no more wonder rushing with MGLs? so now there's no trade-off between an army (therefor heroic epic finally and therefor higher chances for a leader) and a wonder.

so all you need is 1 MGL (for the FP), or maybe a second one for the palace switch. all the other small wonders come a lot later and can be built in a matter of several turns.

so what's the consequence of all this:
easier levels get easier, higher level even more difficult. i only can succeed on emperor/deity with a settler factory starting position and enough space. now i can more or less forget getting any ancient or early medieval wonder... i guess i should go for adam smith's, i might even get that one

	05-11-2003 01:20									#11
	Increase Your PM Length

btw, some calculations:
for non scientific civs it takes an average of 23 techs [ 1-((1 - 0.03)^x) > 0.5 ] to get an SGL,
for scientific "only" 14 techs [ 1-((1 - 0.05)^x) > 0.5 ] in average.

that's a fairly slim chance considering you could easily win 16 elite battles per turn in some games and now it takes an average of 56 (=14x4) turns for scientific civs. that's if you research a tech constantly at 4 turns/tech (ultimate power).

these figures seem quite extreme! have i miscalculated something?

	05-11-2003 02:52									#12
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With the downgrading of MGLs, clearly Militaristic took a hit. Add in the loss of 1/2 cost harbors, and it's a relatively significant hit. The increased abilities of armies do mitigate that somewhat, though.

The Palace move is the most crucial element of Ultimate Power, so MGLs primary purpose (for me) remains intact. I've just lost the ability to rampage through the middle ages hardly ever actually BUILDING a wonder.

Current game: Monarch, Continents, 8 civs, England.

Great Leaders:

1) Palace move
2) Leos
3) Army (Theseus would be proud: 2x med inf + musketman)
4) Smith

If this game had been played with Conquests (leaving aside other changes), it would have looked like this:

1) Palace move
2) Army
3) Army
4) Military Academy

I would have lost Leos. But since I actually did most of my expensive upgrading before rushing Leos, that wouldn't have been a big deal (I had already assumed I'd lose it, so I went ahead with the knight upgrades and kicked off the war that got me leaders 2-4).

That game has absolutely rocked. I got one of the best capitol locations I've ever seen (river, 3 cow on grass, many bonus grass, 3-4 hills... just awesome). My second city, though it looks like nothing special now, was amazing for the ancient age: 5 bonus grass + 1 mined hill = 13spt (12 uncorrupted) at size 6 = Pyramids. That helped me overcome otherwise uninspiring terrain (lots of jungle to my south) to become a powerhouse. Well, that and the GA I triggered the turn I got into republic (Colossus prebuild in the Pyramids city). London pounded out the Great Library with shocking speed. It was like 12 turns. The 1st leader I got was the icing. I had settled for less than optimal Palace/FP placement, but once I got the leader, that changed. The FP went in close to London, and operation "capture Delhi so I can stick my palace there" began.

-Arrian

	05-11-2003 03:15									#13
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I must say, the 50-turn limit doesn't look bad to me. More turns at minimum science = more money and more time building warriors/chariots = larger army when you actually do your upgrade.

Using this tactic currently, I'm still behind in tech... having an additional 10 turns won't change that. It'll just make the army I build larger, and hence, longer-lasting.

Now revised communications trading, that might change things. I might have to research IW now instead of trading for it. And that seems a major pain in the rear. But we'll see, we'll see. Us New Yorkers don't get the dang game until tomorrow...

	05-11-2003 03:19									#14
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth I must say, the 50-turn limit doesn't look bad to me. More turns at minimum science = more money and more time building warriors/chariots = larger army when you actually do your upgrade.

Not as easy as it sounds, because with Conquests you need 50% more gold to upgrade (3 gold per shield)! So that's 60g per Warrior upgrade for you.

	05-11-2003 03:29									#15
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by alexman Not as easy as it sounds, because with Conquests you need 50% more gold to upgrade (3 gold per shield)! So that's 60g per Warrior upgrade for you.

Urg.

You're right... that's not so hot, is it.

...ah, well. We'll have to see if this is still a viable strategy I guess... I wonder what the Epic Game is going to look like in general? The mass upgrade often seems like the only way out of a hole...

	05-11-2003 03:55									#16
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so summary of this thread (and other stuff) so far of what will change imho:
++ = a lot stronger ; + = strengthend ; 0 = neutral ; - = weakend ; -- = a lot weaker
(this is relatively speaking 10-2 is still better than 4+2

°°°traits:
°scientific ++ : higher chance SGL
°commercial + : alphabet is more valuable (curragh, nearer to philosophy), but devalued because seafaring start with this too
°religious + : more governments mean more fast switching
°expansionist + : communication and map trade later, goody huts can give you philosophy ==> another tech too
°industrial - : work speed decreased; devalued because pottery is starting trait of agricultural too
°militaristic - : no cheaper harbors, MGLs can't build wonders

°°°govs:
°communism + : secret police and other stuff, now better for towns and cities (old:T2,C4,M8 ; new:T6,C6,M6)
°republic 0 : higher unit costs, but new some free ones (T1,C3,M4)
°monarchy&democracy 0 : stay the same

°°°wonders:
°leo's ++ : upgrades are more expensive now, leo's saves 50% more than before
other stay more or less the same

°°°civs:
° celts +++ : now agricultural and GS nearly half the price
° aztecs - : JW 50% more expensive
° spanish, english, america + : their UU may even make sence now
° expansionistic civs + : scout&expansionist makes them good tech brokers because communication & map trading pushed to 2nd half of medieval
° industrious civs -
other depending on map. eg. losing exp. can be bad on larger but better on smaller maps.


uhm, there's a lot more, but i'm too lazy now. feel free to add/correct stuff...

	05-11-2003 05:56									#17
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf ° celts +++ : now agricultural and GS nearly half the price

Gallic Swordsmen cost 50 Shields in Play the World. They now cost 40.


Dominae

	05-11-2003 06:40									#18
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quote: Originally posted by alexman ...MGL can't rush great wonders (but they can rush small wonders and other improvements)

And?

What can see over mountains?

And?

What can pillage at will?

And?

What heals in a moment?

	05-11-2003 07:00									#19
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Theseus is a happy Civver!

	05-11-2003 08:38									#20
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the MGL thing does not seam like a big deal. At diety, i consider it a lost cause to even bother with wonders before industrial age(plus, i always look at it and think"this wonder, or 15 midi infantry?" , and their arn't even that many wonders that i care for besides sufferage (which i will not need because of fascism), Hoovers and theory of evolution...

however i can see militaristic being worse. I heard a rumor of military acadamy NOT needing a victorious leader.

btw, does heroic epic increase chance of scientific GL's

	05-11-2003 12:45									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Gallic Swordsmen cost 50 Shields in Play the World. They now cost 40. Dominae

damn... you're right

i guess that 50 so early seems a lot more

40 may be appropriate in that case although 50 wasn't wrong... as long as they don't upgrade to medieval infantry

	05-11-2003 15:42									#22
	Full PM-box? Change here!

The 50 turn to 40 turn will be a big difference in some cases, not so much in terms of your research but in terms of your ability to trade it. As we all know, the AI maxes out on science in the ancient era, and will take researching something in 39 turns at 100% science over getting it in 40 with 10% science (and a lot of cash). If you research the same tech in 40 turns, starting at the same time, then yuo get the tech one turn later, and save 40 turns of cash, but generally find you lose out by not being able to trade the tech to anyone, and so having to spend all that cash buying the techs you could have traded for (never actually checked out which is better value for money - my guess would be that having the tech is more important than the cash, unless the trading situation is bad).

Moving the upper limit from 40 to 50 turns means that techs on the edge (such as Mysticism, in most of my games (Emperor, standard or large maps)) are now definite active research jobs, and more of the 40-turn techs (Polytheism, if you are bee-lining for monarchy as a religious civ, or writing if you are commercial) will now become 'on the edge' techs where the AI might snaffle it in 47 turns and cut you out of the trade loop.

	05-11-2003 17:47									#23
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Ahhh...
The militaristic trait is going
Players have to BUILD wonders
Upgrades are more

Ah well, It's good to know the gods of civ3 have accepted the humble request of civ3' PP

	05-11-2003 17:54									#24
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

mountain sage (fellow citizen )
i think some breakaway guys got the a$$e$ kicked in MP against some sid-level-warmongers like arrian and could bare the defeat. so they changed the rules

	05-11-2003 21:08									#25
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Sabrewolf:

I'm looking forward to the changes. Developing new strategies is a big part of the fun of this game for me. From what I've seen posted about C3C, we'll have to come up with some new ways of trashing the AI. :d

	05-11-2003 21:59									#26
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As a footnote to my own comments above, I forgot to mention the other benefit of researching in 39 turns at 100% science vs 40 turns at 10% - scientific great leaders.

I think there are going to be far fewer great wonders rushed in C3C, if military GL can no longer do the job.

	05-11-2003 22:44									#27
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Sid-level warmonger, my ass. I'm a Monarch-level wonder hog - that's what I am. The warmonger part came from the wonder-hogging.

-Arrian

	06-11-2003 15:03									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Mountain Sage Ahhh... The militaristic trait is going Players have to BUILD wonders Upgrades are more Ah well, It's good to know the gods of civ3 have accepted the humble request of civ3' PP

Except that those Pike to Musket upgrades are going to be even more expensive now.

I like the SGL thing though. About time. I expect that those of us who always research hard anyway rather than hoarding and buying will adapt more easily to the new regime. I wonder if someof our warmachines here will become research-engines instead?

	06-11-2003 16:58									#29
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With 50 turns tech research and communication trading much later ancient and medieval eras will play differently from now. I suppose the ancient era will remain much longer 'ancient' than before and I'll definitely like it!!

AJ

	06-11-2003 20:10									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

The Ancient Era is much more flexible now.

At least, that's how it seems...

Seems easy to do both a mass upgrade and pump up research... and that philosophy + free tech?

wowza is all I have to say.