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Bereta_Eder
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I think nationalism is an "ideology"
fascism is a way to rule a country.
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VetLegion
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Fascism is Italian invention, though it was perfected elswhere. It did evolve from nationalism and chauvinism, which are back in vogue these days.
Except for the politicaly correct types that look the other way when they see a flag of their country.
And commies.
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VetLegion
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And I am sceptical about commies. They are usually highly motivated and active bunch, history has seen examples of commies supporting the national option.
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VetLegion
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There you go Whaleboy. What if UK was in danger, wouldn't you fight for it? And the only reason a guy from York is going to fight for a guy in Northampton is nationalism.
Though British nationalism was/is different than other euro nationalisms, that's true.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
Nationalism is not necessarily fascism. I simply means that you consider your nation to be THE attachment point of your identity, and to consider nation as THE thing you'll make the ultimate sacrifices (more than all else)
Fascists are people who share the same appreciation of the nation, but they do more than that:
Nationalism doesn't necessarily imply a hatred for foreign countries, or doesn't imply that your country is inherently superior to the rest. Fascism does.
Nationalism doesn't mean you support a harsh security policy, where the police has extended powers, and can do quick justice. Fascism does.
Nationalism has nothing to do with punishing people within your borders, because they don't think like you want. Fascism does.
Nationalism is not doomed to be an ideology of far-right dangerous nutjobs. Fascism does. |
this is a good start, but doesnt go quite far enough. The above would include a great many rightist authoritarianisms, and even some nationalist democrats in as Fascists.
more precisely Fascism is an ideology that not merely hates foreigners, but glorifies war, and sees war not a something to be resorted to for pragmatic reasons, even nationalist ones, but as the ideal moral and aesthetic activity.
Fascism doesnt merely assert greater police powers for quick justice, it despises democracy in principle, (though relying generally on mob support) and tends toward an aesthetic rather than pragmatic view of politics.
Thus it is possible to be an authoritarian right winger without being a fascist. Many of the right wing military regimes in Latin America were not genuinely fascist. At least some elements in the Franco regime were not genuinely fascist.
I would prefer a distinction Patriot - Nationalist - Fascist. Im not sure even that is quite refined enough.
I would point out that not all fascism is necessarily even nationalist. While Italian fascism and mediterranean fascims directly related to it were quite nationalist, Nazism, with its worship of the Aryan race was more complex. While Nazi ideologues said that Germans were the best and purest Aryans, and they allied themselves with traditional German nationalists, there was always an intrinsic tension, that reflected itself in the tensions between the SS attempt at a racial elite and the traditional Germany army hierarchy, and the Nazi foreign policy focus, of virulent hatred for Russia, constant hope for an alliance with Britain, and uninterest in colonial claims, which contrasted with more traditional German nationalist foreign policy.
This is especially interesting in that Salafi-Jihadism, which looks VERY MUCH like fascism, emphasizes Islamic identity over national identity, even over the national identity of Arabs, the founders of Islam (this is the basis for its ideological opposition to Baathism)
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Whaleboy
No. Northampton is a shithole  . Seriously, I dont care for alliegences to a nation, or city or any of that stuff... it just doesn't hold up, to be honest I find such patriotism highly irrational. As Lennon said, "I dont believe in *insert loads of crap here*, I believe in me". I share that philosophy, as a result, I will only fight to defend myself and those I love. |
the idea is that to defend those you love, you need a political structure to defend them. Back when there were no nation states, people fairly routinely saw their loved ones killed by local bandit "knights" etc. You could defend them yourself if you were sufficiently big and strong - if not, you were out of luck. Early nationalism and state support in a country like England was not for the most part mystica BS - it was a very pragmatic reaction against feudal disorder. Now maybe the nation state is obsolete, and the EU, or the UN or whatever is a better assurance of order and safety. But just defending yourself and your loved ones tends not to work, if everyone adopts that view.
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Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:31
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The central idea behind fascism is one of cohesiveness - turning a society into a tight-nit family. That is, the state should "mediate" between dissenting elements of society, for instance strikers and industrialists, in the greater interest of unity (and naturally, the state intervenes on the side with the greater amount of money and power). And of course, an intrinsic aspect of this, is basing a society on the dominant nation and persecuting the dissenters (Roma, Jews, etc.), thus fascism is based on extreme nationalism.
As lotm pointed out, fascism is intrinsically different from the run of the mill right-wing authoritarian state. For instance, fascism is founded on maintaining the supremacy of the state and its appendages, thus is naturally hostile to independent institutions such as the church. Furthermore, its economic policy tends to be nationalist of course, which tends to benefit industrialists over big landlords (landlords would half to buy protected/subsidized farm equipment). Which is in sharp contrast to, say Somoza's Nicaragua, Bautista's Cuba, Duvalier's Haiti, or Franco's Spain (which was fascist only in name, contrary to popular belief).
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Ramo
Furthermore, its economic policy tends to be nationalist of course, which tends to benefit industrialists over big landlords (landlords would half to buy protected/subsidized farm equipment). Which is in sharp contrast to, say Somoza's Nicaragua, Bautista's Cuba, Duvalier's Haiti, or Franco's Spain (which was fascist only in name, contrary to popular belief). |
Im not sure a facsist regime has to be protectionist by definition. And whether a protectionist regime is favorable to industrialists or landlords depends on the nations position in trade. Was Nazi Germany protectionist? If it was, that was of no benefit to industrialist vs landlords, since germany imported agricultural products.
I would also suggest that there were genuine fascists in Spain, and that they supported Franco, and that they were part of the Franco regime.
Paul Berman makes an excellent point in "terror and liberalism" communism by its nature as an internationalist movement strove to look similar from country to country, emphasizing an international outlook. Fasciscm, in contrast, emphasized local traditions and distinctiveness, and this tends to make it harder to recognize. In Germany and Italy local nationalist traditions were frequently at odds with the church, and in Germany there was a strongly secularist-Nietschean (even if based on misinterpretation) authoritarian outlook. Spain had a far different history and outlook - to be true to Spanish traditionalism and distinctiveness, fascism in Spain HAD to be more Catholic than in Italy - to imitate Italian modernism would have been internationalist, and thus NOT fascist. Berman emphasizes this of course in his discussions of the even more unlikely looking Salafi jihadi movement.
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04-11-2003 21:59
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