07-11-2003 02:48									#61
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Not really surprising - is the disparity in wealth between rich and poor in Russia now better or worse than before the 1917 Revolutions

Have you been to any Russian (post-)industrial cities?

	07-11-2003 12:30									#62
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Nope. My former colleague now works in Ryazan, and said it's pretty much ok, and on par with how these type of semi-closed cities with lots of defense industries looked before the fall of the USSR.

	09-11-2003 07:48									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Saras Oh serb, you're such a nostalgic crybaby Btw, did you know that a recent survey said 42% of Russian people would support a bolshevik revolution now, and only 10% would actively resist it?

Do you see now? A majority is on my side.

	09-11-2003 08:44									#64
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Another to take in to account- in post-WWII west vs. Russia scenario, wouldn't it have been likely that the remains of the Wehrmact(sp?) would have sided with the Western Allies over Russia?

	09-11-2003 09:26									#65
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The remaining Wehrmacht forces in May 1945 numbered around 3 million men, mainly in a pocket in Czechoslovakia, an Army Group in Italy, and the remains of a Western Front. If the Western Allies had taken the pressure off, and given active support, especially air support, the Wehrmacht by itself could have put up MAJOR resistance to further Soviet advances.

Throw in Allied ground forces, and I just don't think the Soviets would have gotten much further.

Of course, letting the Germans fight would have been a political question, not a military one, and letting them fight under competent leaders (many of whom were Nazis, either in fact or in name) would have been a political decision as well.

But WRT the Red Army - it was out of replacements. It basically had the forces in place, and very little else to call on. The Western Allies would have attrited it down to nothing, especially once Allied air power cut off its supply train, and starting bombing the Soviet Union itself.

	09-11-2003 10:10									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Yes. Hirohito should have been tried as a class A war criminal.

My evil capitalist American telivision programs on the History Channel inform me that Hirohito was actually powerless and it was his military generals who had seized control of Japan and were leading the nation into hell.

...

	09-11-2003 10:44									#67
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell My evil capitalist American telivision programs on the History Channel inform me that Hirohito was actually powerless and it was his military generals who had seized control of Japan and were leading the nation into hell. ...

I think I saw the same HC program. It said the Hirohito tried to stop the invasion of China but could not. When it came to the attack on the US, he said and did nothing because nothing he said or did would have mattered.

	09-11-2003 13:05									#68
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell My evil capitalist American telivision programs on the History Channel inform me that Hirohito was actually powerless and it was his military generals who had seized control of Japan and were leading the nation into hell.

That seems quite impluasible to me, seeing that the Japanese had been doing that for years (Korea, China).

	09-11-2003 16:02									#70
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd The remaining Wehrmacht forces in May 1945 numbered around 3 million men, mainly in a pocket in Czechoslovakia, an Army Group in Italy, and the remains of a Western Front. If the Western Allies had taken the pressure off, and given active support, especially air support, the Wehrmacht by itself could have put up MAJOR resistance to further Soviet advances. Throw in Allied ground forces, and I just don't think the Soviets would have gotten much further. Of course, letting the Germans fight would have been a political question, not a military one, and letting them fight under competent leaders (many of whom were Nazis, either in fact or in name) would have been a political decision as well. But WRT the Red Army - it was out of replacements. It basically had the forces in place, and very little else to call on. The Western Allies would have attrited it down to nothing, especially once Allied air power cut off its supply train, and starting bombing the Soviet Union itself.

I agree

And western air forces would have blown the crap out the soviet army

yeah t-34 is great

but not so great after getting slammed by a mustang

	09-11-2003 16:43									#71
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd The remaining Wehrmacht forces in May 1945 numbered around 3 million men, mainly in a pocket in Czechoslovakia, an Army Group in Italy, and the remains of a Western Front. If the Western Allies had taken the pressure off, and given active support, especially air support, the Wehrmacht by itself could have put up MAJOR resistance to further Soviet advances. Throw in Allied ground forces, and I just don't think the Soviets would have gotten much further. Of course, letting the Germans fight would have been a political question, not a military one, and letting them fight under competent leaders (many of whom were Nazis, either in fact or in name) would have been a political decision as well. But WRT the Red Army - it was out of replacements. It basically had the forces in place, and very little else to call on. The Western Allies would have attrited it down to nothing, especially once Allied air power cut off its supply train, and starting bombing the Soviet Union itself.

The same blah...blah...blah...as always

I wish I could have a HOI game (USSR vs USA) against you David.

	09-11-2003 16:49									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker I agree And western air forces would have blown the crap out the soviet army yeah t-34 is great but not so great after getting slammed by a mustang

To your knowledge Soviet airforces and anti-aircraft defences were far far away from Iraqis.

You take American superiority in skies in 1945 for granted. I dare to say that it's a bullsh!t claim.

Have a nice day.

	10-11-2003 01:31									#73
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quote: I wish I could have a HOI game (USSR vs USA) against you David.

Why would that be realistic?

quote: You take American superiority in skies in 1945 for granted. I dare to say that it's a bullsh!t claim.

Oh dear, don't make me pull out actual figures and statistics, and production numbers, and numbers of reserve pilots, etc., again, Serb.

	10-11-2003 01:30									#74
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quote: I wish I could have a HOI game (USSR vs USA) against you David.

Why would that be realistic?

quote: You take American superiority in skies in 1945 for granted. I dare to say that it's a bullsh!t claim.

Oh dear, don't make me pull out actual figures and statistics, and production numbers, and numbers of reserve pilots, etc., again, Serb.

	10-11-2003 03:35									#75
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd The remaining Wehrmacht forces in May 1945 numbered around 3 million men, mainly in a pocket in Czechoslovakia, an Army Group in Italy, and the remains of a Western Front. If the Western Allies had taken the pressure off, and given active support, especially air support, the Wehrmacht by itself could have put up MAJOR resistance to further Soviet advances.

That's very doubtful. The German army had troops but morale was well and truly broken. It was a spent force.

	10-11-2003 03:39									#76
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quote: The German army had troops but morale was well and truly broken.

Oh that's quite right, but I think a point can be made that if the war against the Western Allies not only ended, but the Allies began actively supporting Germany against the Soviet Union, morale would have improved.

	10-11-2003 04:37									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Serb To your knowledge Soviet airforces and anti-aircraft defences were far far away from Iraqis. You take American superiority in skies in 1945 for granted. I dare to say that it's a bullsh!t claim. Have a nice day.

yeah right

and the American air force could have been increased exponentially anyway

	10-11-2003 12:20									#78
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I guess I'm not getting any clarification on that one. Oh well, it didn't make much sense anyway.

	21-11-2003 04:51									#79
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Hey, even iff the yanks had air superiority, they wouldn't be able to get that superiority into the urals and the russians actualy did have vast amounts of reinforcements to call on, and while if in this senario the krauts were brought back into the war and reequiped bbe thhe allies, the moral boost would not bbe to big, and would soon wear away, as, they would hhave to go back into russia, then get pushed all the way out to france, ending central european civilization as we knew it

	21-11-2003 10:57									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Commie Chocobo Hey, even iff the yanks had air superiority, they wouldn't be able to get that superiority into the urals and the russians actualy did have vast amounts of reinforcements to call on, and while if in this senario the krauts were brought back into the war and reequiped bbe thhe allies, the moral boost would not bbe to big, and would soon wear away, as, they would hhave to go back into russia, then get pushed all the way out to france, ending central european civilization as we knew it

The problem, CC, is not that the American Air Force could not reach the Urals,it is that the Russians could not touch America.

	21-11-2003 11:04									#81
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Why would that be realistic?

hey, it was your idea about such match, not my, remeber?

quote: Oh dear, don't make me pull out actual figures and statistics, and production numbers, and numbers of reserve pilots, etc., again, Serb.

Again? What do you mean "again"?

	21-11-2003 11:09									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The problem, CC, is not that the American Air Force could not reach the Urals,it is that the Russians could not touch America.

Ned, we were talking about war in Europe in 1945. David believe that "in a conventional war in Europe in May of 1945, the Western Allies would have absolutely destroyed the Red Army", I believe in exactly the opposite.

	21-11-2003 11:11									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker yeah right and the American air force could have been increased exponentially anyway

And your country would be today a part of mighty Soviet Empire, anyway.

	21-11-2003 11:15									#84
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Oh that's quite right, but I think a point can be made that if the war against the Western Allies not only ended, but the Allies began actively supporting Germany against the Soviet Union, morale would have improved.

Where? Perhaps in USA or in US Army, where lived/served a lot of Jews? I guess Jews would have been just happy to ally with Nazi in war vs. Soviets.

	21-11-2003 11:21									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Ned, we were talking about war in Europe in 1945. David believe that "in a conventional war in Europe in May of 1945, the Western Allies would have absolutely destroyed the Red Army", I believe in exactly the opposite.

I think the Russians could have pushed the US off the continent if they attacked in the summer of '45, but then it would have had one hell of a problem as it would face air superiority near England that it could not hope to overcome. As well, its supply lines would have stretched all the way back to the Urals and would have been vulnerable to American Air Power. It would only be a matter of time until America re-invaded and pushed the Russians back, not because America could match Russian manpower, but because Russia could not hope to resupply its army in face of American air supremacy.

Besides, the Russians would have had a collapsed Germany behind its front lines. I am willing to bet that the German Army would have fought the Russians as best it could guerilla-fashion as the Russians would have been viewed as brutal occuppiers. This would have severely complicated Russia's supply problem.