04-11-2003 22:46									#1
	Should the Allies have handled Post-WW2 differently? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Right after the end of WW2, the Allies were in a position of strength compared to the Soviet Union. The US' economy and military were booming and had a nuclear monopoly while the Soviet Union was recovering from a devastating land campaign. Churchill argued that the Allies should have used that position of strength to pressure Stalin to negotiate a settlement, rather than wait until the Soviet Union assimilated Eastern Europe.

Should the Allies have done things differently with the Soviet Union in the years immediately following the end of WW2?

	04-11-2003 22:59									#2
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Considering we didn't have a ww3... I'd say we did okay.

	04-11-2003 23:01									#3
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Yeah, but we had the Cold War, Veitnam, Korea, Afganistan etc...

The allies should really have *forced* Stalin to allow free elections in eastern Europe, instead of 40-50 years later. But they didn't, and that's history for you.

-Jam

	04-11-2003 23:29									#4
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The Soviet Union was no pushover in the conventional military. That would have been one nasty fight in Europe, a Europe which was tired of war.

Nukes? We had 'em, the Soviets didn't. Right, that's always a winning strategy - in real life or civ!!!

	04-11-2003 23:54									#5
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The Americans did not have nukes until 15 months after the end of the war in Europe. If they confronted the Soviet Union, they would have to fight a conventional war. That was impossible while fighting against Japan as well.

	05-11-2003 00:10									#6
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Actually, in a conventional war in Europe in May of 1945, the Western Allies would have absolutely destroyed the Red Army. No question. Further, US strategic bombers would have devastated the Soviet Union itself.

In any case, while I don't believe we should have fought WW2 to begin with, we certainly should not have allowed Stalin to set up puppet communist nations in Eastern Europe.

	05-11-2003 00:41									#7
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Er yeah. And we'd have justified a war how? The Soviets just kicked the Nazis back to Berlin.

	05-11-2003 00:44									#8
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I'm just saying, we woulda stomped them

	05-11-2003 02:11									#9
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What we shoulda done is stop the aid to Russia once victory was almost inevitable. Russia would not have given up fighting, I think Stalin was too stupid and obstinant to negotiate a seperate peace, but it wouldn't make that much difference to the outcome if they did. The Allies could then have liberated Eastern Europe itself while Russia stood around as an impotent bystander.
From our post Cold-War viewpoint it would have been a grand plan. From the viewpoint of Roosevelt and maybe Churchill it would have unnecessarily cost more lives and time. The route they chose was the most expedient road to peace, so I have no qualms when all is said and done.

	05-11-2003 03:43									#10
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I think it would have been a crime against humanity to continue world war 2 a day longer than necessary or to risk a new war with Russia.

One fact people forget is the allies won the war but the allied armies were exhausted. The British army in particular just staggered over the line after 6 years of war. If the war had been prolonged or restarted there was a strong chance of a mutiny by the troops.

Similarly the Russian people longed for peace having suffered unimaginably during the war. There was enormous popular respect for their achievements at the time and a feeling the Red Army was invincible.

	05-11-2003 04:41									#11
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Plus, Harry S. Truman told in his memories that the reason for not discuss with Stalin and give him so much control of Easter Europe was that the US govt. believed that they will need the help of the USSR to attack Japan, in order to minimize losses.

Please remember who bad were the estimation of losses if an attack over the main islands of Japan should have been done.

	05-11-2003 05:08									#12
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You should also consider that declaring war on the Soviet Union would have meant immediate war with almost all partizan forces in formerly occupied countries.

The problem would be the worst in Asia, where Malaysians, Vietnamese, Philippinos and Chinese had each considerable communist partizan forces, who had fought against the Japanese. With it's nationalist movement at full steam, India would be easy pickings for the Communists too. Also in Europe, British positions in Greece would be untenable if the partizan army were to have the support of the neighbouring countries. Not to mention that the Allies would have trouble holding France and Italy proper, where the communist parties were extremely powerful, so powerful that only marginally did they miss getting into power in the first post-war elections.

All you military experts forget that it's not just how many divisions you have on the border that judges the outcome of a war. The communist movement was so strong that taking action against the Soviet Union at that time would make any capitalist state unsafe, even the British Empire and the United States.

	05-11-2003 05:39									#13
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hmmm, I think that overstates it - partisans never had much more than a nuisance value - but you are right in the sense that such a war would not have had wide popular support.

	05-11-2003 05:43									#14
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However had that happend, Russia may today have been a prospering democracy

	05-11-2003 05:48									#15
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more likely a smoking ruin

The idea of allied troops fighting over the same devastated ground the Germans invaded is quite obscene when you think about it.

	05-11-2003 05:52									#16
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It would've been more a PR nightmare than anything else IMO.
After all the allies had already been forced to paint Stalin in a new light after the onset of war between the Axis and the Comintern - he was a bad guy only just south of Hitler until then - backflipping yet again after the defeat of the Axis in europe probably wouldn't have gone down too well.
Besides - with the Japanese still unconquered it would've been foolish to begin fighting anew, and several months later, after that little detail had been taken care of, the red army had had a much needed several months for rest and recovery.

	05-11-2003 06:16									#17
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quote: hmmm, I think that overstates it - partisans never had much more than a nuisance value - but you are right in the sense that such a war would not have had wide popular support.

In December 1944, the ELAS, the Greek communist partizan army had a main force of 45.000 men and another 45.000 men in reserves. That army, which was founded rather late, in 1942, had managed to pin down 10 German divisions throughout the war. When the Germans retreated in October, it was the only army in the whole country. Some of these reserves that were stationed in Athens fought against General Scoby's forces between Dec3 and Jan26 inside the city, until the Varkiza accord was signed and the ELAS was disarmed. When the civil war broke out again in 1946, the new ELAS had a starting force of 3.000 men and reached a maximum of 26.000. This partizan army managed to pin down a regular army of 200.000 men between 1946-1949. That army was an utter failure by guerilla standards.

I do not have any numbers on the partizan forces in France, Italy or in any Asian country, but they were rather formidable foes, for the purpose they were used for against the Germans. They were definitely going to be used against the Allies as well.

	05-11-2003 09:48									#18
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As I mentioned in another thread, the US military, including Eisenhower, were in favor of accepting Japan's conditional offer of surrender in part to forstall the Soviet declaration of war on Japan. It was our perceived need to get the Soviets to declare war that lead to Truman's weakness at Potsdam. Also, a major cause of Truman's use of the bomb was because Stalin knew he was in a position of strength and virtually dictated terms in Europe. Truman wanted to demonstrate the US's new superweapon to Stalin.

Had Truman simply listened to Eisenhower, who gave him his views at Potsdam, history might have been different. But, Truman continued down the path of concessions to Stalin. Truman never even got the unconditional surrender he wanted with Japan while surrendering Eastern Europe and dropping the A-bomb. Not to smart in my book.

Last edited by Ned on 05-11-2003 at 10:36

	05-11-2003 10:46									#19
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Stalin didn't dictate sheit

USA!

	05-11-2003 10:50									#20
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I think that it turned out a lot better than it could have - we aren't a bunch of glowing radioactive dust particles.

	05-11-2003 11:01									#21
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it was the Red Army that actually slaughtered Germany

not the Western allies

Jon Miller

	05-11-2003 11:22									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller it was the Red Army that actually slaughtered Germany not the Western allies Jon Miller

True, Jon, but Truman did roll over an play dead at Potsdam.

	05-11-2003 11:29									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller it was the Red Army that actually slaughtered Germany not the Western allies Jon Miller

Popular apologist theory but no

Contrary to the revisionist view, allied strategic bombing did obliterate the Nazi war machine

	05-11-2003 11:32									#24
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what crap

	05-11-2003 11:40									#25
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man

take a look at the tanks

Jon Miller

	05-11-2003 11:42									#26
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if you want to get an idea of who won the war just one of the many European theatre wargames on the market

	05-11-2003 11:43									#27
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what are you talking about

and you ah british commanders fighting to the last australian etc.

	05-11-2003 12:03									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch What we shoulda done is stop the aid to Russia once victory was almost inevitable. Russia would not have given up fighting, I think Stalin was too stupid and obstinant to negotiate a seperate peace, but it wouldn't make that much difference to the outcome if they did. The Allies could then have liberated Eastern Europe itself while Russia stood around as an impotent bystander.

LOL, what a naive point of view! First, if the aid were stopped as of 1 January 1944, this would have made no crucial diffirence. By then, the Red Army was virtually unstoppable. The aid was most important from the mid 1942 till 1943. Second, if the USSR made a separate peace in the beginning of 1944, when the whole Soviet territory was liberated, you would have never liberated Europe (not even Western, not to mention Eastern). It would have been a stalemate. Indeed, there are two factors that made your landing in Normandie successful:

1) The main part of the German Army was tied up in the East.
2) Motivation: get to Western Europe before the Soviets.

In the case of a separate peace, none of the two would be present. Hence a stalemate.

Well, perhaps only with the help of the A-bomb could you liberate Europe by yourselves.

	05-11-2003 12:07									#29
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1) The main part of the German Army was tied up in the East.

yeah right

or maybe the western and southern front were tying up German forces to take the load off the eastern front. that's why it's a 2 (3) front war duh

stalin had been screaming for a second front to open up

	05-11-2003 12:12									#30
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Just imagine D Day with a panzer army up your clacker and you'll get the idea Ted.