05-11-2003 03:43									#1
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Has anyone ever SEEN a base revolt to the side of the Drones? Especially when playing as the Drones? It was supposedly fixed in the latest patch, but I've never seen it happen, even though AI bases are constantly revolting. I hardly ever loose a base to another fac unless it's 3 am and I'm not paying attention to the little bugger's pleas for help. Needless to say, I'm surprised when it does happen, because it almost never gets that out of control.
Is that how it's supposed to work? if a base gets out of control and is going to switch sides, it has a 75% chance of picking the Drones? Is that it? That seems pretty pointless to me, since it never happens.

	05-11-2003 03:48									#2
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If I've understood correctly, the base has to be in drone riots for two consecutive turns for a revolt to be possible. The AI does all in its power to avoid drone riots, so this very rarely happens.

Of course, getting a base in the middle of an enemy's territory is usually not a great thing, especially against humans. Can you say "probe rape"? No, the Drones' strengths are definitely elsewhere.

	05-11-2003 03:48									#3
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Thats pretty much correct-- Of course for a base to be in revolt for the TWO turns necessary to make thois happen in unthinkable-- This ability almost NEVER comes into play-- but even without it I nelieve the drones to be a quite strong faction

	05-11-2003 03:53									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Minute Mirage . Of course, getting a base in the middle of an enemy's territory is usually not a great thing, especially against humans. Can you say "probe rape"? No, the Drones' strenghts are definitely elsewhere.

There was a discussion on this topic either here or at CGN and everyone seemed to think it would be unfair to permit a player to proberape a base that was lost in this fashion-- I have not seen a rule put in place on this point however

	05-11-2003 03:53									#5
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okay. i just wanted to get that cleared up. I always thought it'd be fun to have a sudden outpost within enemy territory. hmm... what if the Drones probed a base so that it would revolt two turns in a row? Wouldn't that be possible? It'd be like buying the base for free. I ought to test that.

Drones aren't that fun at the start though, when their research is slower than everyone elses. But when that Industry rating gets up there, it doesn't matter because you build research facilities twice as fast as everyone else.

	05-11-2003 03:57									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber There was a discussion on this topic either here or at CGN and everyone seemed to think it would be unfair to permit a player to proberape a base that was lost in this fashion-- I have not seen a rule put in place on this point however

Yes, I read the thread and it was at CGN. I agree that probing a defected base should be banned (except for mind control).

quote: Originally posted by SynthetGod8 hmm... what if the Drones probed a base so that it would revolt two turns in a row? Wouldn't that be possible? It'd be like buying the base for free. I ought to test that.

I don't think it works, because the AI gets the base out of drone riots during its turn.

	05-11-2003 04:00									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Minute Mirage I don't think it works, because the AI gets the base out of drone riots during its turn.

I mean if you incited Drone Riots a bunch of times. Isn't there some way the computer could not cope with it?

	05-11-2003 04:06									#8
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quote: Originally posted by SynthetGod8 I mean if you incited Drone Riots a bunch of times. Isn't there some way the computer could not cope with it?

From what I've read, the AI will always assign enough workers to specialists to stop the drone riots, regardless of starvation or other factors.

	05-11-2003 05:23									#9
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I've played lots of games as the Drones and have never received a base via drone riots. At one time I tried the idea of inciting riots by probing. It didn't work. No matter how many probe teams were used, the base wouldn't riot, not even for one turn.

	07-11-2003 14:59									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Petek I've played lots of games as the Drones and have never received a base via drone riots. At one time I tried the idea of inciting riots by probing. It didn't work. No matter how many probe teams were used, the base wouldn't riot, not even for one turn.

I'm playing a faction with the Revolt set to 100% and it just doesn't seem to work. Somehow, the AI always saves its bases, and I'm not even sure how. I think it might even cheat (I've certainly seen the Hive cheat-build roads for its army conga-lines).

I probed to death the University HQ (stripping all facilities and inciting riots) and it was in drone riot for something like over 10 turns. Nothing happened.

A neighboring university base I assaulted with 3 teams every turn for about 5 turns before I gave up. I'm pretty sure I got it to riot for at least 2 turns in a row, and with the amount of inciting I did, nothing should have saved it from that. But somehow the AI saves the base and it never defected. From time to time, using the scenario editor, I note that the Believers and the University have had rioting bases, but none ever defected.

Not having once ever seen this function work, I am very much inclined to think it is bogus.

	08-11-2003 00:21									#11
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I, too, despite playing quite a bit as the Drones have NEVER seen an AI base revolt to me. I couldn't care less, really. If it were supposed to be a factor to push the Drones over into being a good faction, I would mind, but they are already nearly overpowered as it is. Actually, as others have noted, it would if anything weaken the Drones, at least against Humans, if this happened, so in that sense maybe it IS a shame...

USC

	08-11-2003 20:51									#12
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Bases will "flip" to the Drones: I started a hotseat games in which I controlled two factions: the Drones and the Hive. Other factions were the Cyborgs, University, Pirates, Spartans, and Believers. I built 9 bases for the Hive and then allowed them to riot. By MY 2168, eight bases (all except the Hive HQ) had flipped to the Drones. No base flipped to another faction. Also, the bases rioted for several turns before flipping.

So, the Drones' special ability works. More experiments would be needed to determine the validity of the 75% probability of the base flipping to the Drones (instead of some other faction).

	08-11-2003 21:37									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Petek Bases will "flip" to the Drones: I started a hotseat games in which I controlled two factions: the Drones and the Hive. Other factions were the Cyborgs, University, Pirates, Spartans, and Believers. I built 9 bases for the Hive and then allowed them to riot. By MY 2168, eight bases (all except the Hive HQ) had flipped to the Drones. No base flipped to another faction. Also, the bases rioted for several turns before flipping. So, the Drones' special ability works. More experiments would be needed to determine the validity of the 75% probability of the base flipping to the Drones (instead of some other faction).

Thats my experience as well-- bases controlled by a human may riot and change sides BUT I also have NEVER seen an AI lose a base to drone riots-- so perhaps it could work in MP but not in SP ??

	08-11-2003 22:38									#14
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I've lost a base to the Drones before. Never gained one as them though. Perhaps possible in PBEM, but the AI always clears unrest the next turn.

-Jam

	09-11-2003 06:17									#15
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I believe that the discussion at CGN centered around the potential exploit of intentionally creating and (mis)managing base(s) so that they would revolt and then probe raping them (with the supply of probes left nearby for that putpose, and being careful to probe-sabotage their production as necessary to prevent them from destroying the base) for all that it is possible to get from the victim. It is not necessarily worth it to do this, but it presumably would work to some extent and is not banned AFAIK. As to whether or not the same effort expended on a vast flotilla of cruiser-probes would be as good . . .

	09-11-2003 19:29									#16
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I play the Drones a lot and never got bases (from the AI, that is). It is also surprisingly hard to incite drone riots in an AI base and keep it this way, even after multiple probe actions and destroying all psych-related facilities. Anyway, I guess the game works that way that only player bases may flip on rioting. So only in a MP game a Drone player could benefit from this trait.

Has anyone ever seen an AI base flip due to riots? Maybe it's more of a "AI bases don't flip" thing.

Nevertheless, even without flipping, the Drones are one of the most powerful factions due to their nearly unlimited ICS ability. Usually, on 0 EFFICIENCY, I start with 9 bases on huge maps. With the Drones, I go to 18 in almost the same time thanks to their -1 drone and +2 INDUSTRY.

	09-11-2003 21:22									#17
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I have only seen it occur when an AI switches to FM with an army out wandering.

	10-11-2003 21:52									#18
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quote: With the Drones, I go to 18 in almost the same time thanks to their -1 drone and +2 INDUSTRY.

And boy, on a huge map you can definitely have your cake (the WP) and eat it too (the HGP) with the drones, due to quickly-built explorers gobbling up pods and generating artifacts like there's no tomorrow... that is, if you even need artifacts. If some sucker AI is willing to give you Information Networks and Industrial Economics -- two measly techs -- (since they'll usually refuse Planetary Networks), it's amazing how fast you can start chucking out SC's.

USC

	11-11-2003 00:19									#19
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I have only normal SMAC but I can often see bases changing owners during a riot - but never between two AI-s. It is easy to get AI-s bases. You see for base to revolt you need two things: first - it has to be in state in revolt for two turns.
SECOND - all base citizens have to be drones

I used this knowledge to steal friendly AI bases with SPs, but it is pretty unfair towards the computer. You need to make sure that AI is running a FM and then produce a half of dozen scout patrols. Move them near target base and transfer unit control (it works better if the target base is already in state of drone riots because AI is suspiciously able to mange it). Next turn a popup will anounce that the drone tributes have chosen to join you .

	11-11-2003 00:43									#20
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This is a little different question but kind of related. What would happen if the revolting base has an SP? Would the SP now belongs to the faction that the base revolting to or will it now belongs to none? In a MP game I played I found under some SPs where it says who built it it says "none".

	11-11-2003 04:53									#21
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It belongs to the new owner of the bae, just as if the base had been captured by military action.

the 'none' desgnation arises when the base containg that SP has been destroyed (too small to survive occupation by the enemy, obliterated, or eliminated by PB or nerve gas) or, some CMNs eliminate a SP at game's start by the means of scenario editor - building that SP in a base and then obliterating it.