 |
| |
|
|
Albert Speer
|
|
Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:31
|
|
Paying for police protection: this is mind-boggling for me. while the police can be corrupt or incompetent and there probably should be more vigilantism allowed, the basic idea of a "non-partial" police force protecting and serving the entire public is crucial. I can't imagine how the cities would be like when the security companies realize people in them can not afford to pay their fees. imagine there suddenly being no arrests and crime will run even more rampant than it does today.
Fully private healthcare: I'm against a single, government-controlled universal healthcare system for various reasons, including the erosion of doctors' skills but also the sheer cost of such a system. Some basic free or very cheap healthcare (read clinics), paid for by the gov't and/or charities, must exist for the disadvantaged, especially for the children. now you can say the children are not your concern... Such basic things as immunizations, however, MUST be given to everybody and thus, MUST be free for the poor if only to prevent epidemics. do we really need to have the plague, polio, smallpox, and a thousand other diseases killing millions just because people couldn't afford immunizations.
Court representation: no public defenders? well damn, let's just throw tens of thousands of poor people in jail now!
Capitalism that will destroy itself: Lasseiz-faire capitalism has the odd attribute of being so capitalistic, it can only destroy capitalism. You have complete free trade and no regulation at all and monopolies form... trusts form... and suddenly, competition is effectively destroyed.
similiarly, let's take the libertarian hatred of public education. Now, conservatives have a tendency to dislike public education but mainly because they deem it as ineffective. Conservatives do not want to suddenly have no tax money go towards education. They just want the money that would go to public schools be re-directed to subsidizing students going to more effective private schools via vouchers.
Libertarians, however, are against both public schools and vouchers. now, how can we say that every american has an oppurtunity to succeed through his hard-work if, as a child, he was too poor to attend school?
now the libertarian response is all the tax money that would go towards education will go back to the pockets of the people. first of all, this is based on the assumption that the parents will spend the money on said child's education. Frankly, I'm positive a good-sized minority of parents wouldn't spend this money to send their children to school. so what becomes of these children who can not go to school? i'm sorry but free education is a must if we are to have a capitalist economy where we reward hard work with success.
thanks
|
|
| |
|
|
|
David Floyd
|
|
The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:31
|
|
quote:
Paying for police protection: this is mind-boggling for me. while the police can be corrupt or incompetent and there probably should be more vigilantism allowed, the basic idea of a "non-partial" police force protecting and serving the entire public is crucial. I can't imagine how the cities would be like when the security companies realize people in them can not afford to pay their fees. imagine there suddenly being no arrests and crime will run even more rampant than it does today. |
Apparently you are unfamilar with the concept of user fees.
quote:
Such basic things as immunizations, however, MUST be given to everybody and thus, MUST be free for the poor if only to prevent epidemics. do we really need to have the plague, polio, smallpox, and a thousand other diseases killing millions just because people couldn't afford immunizations. |
Poor people in the US don't starve to death, nor do they walk around naked - obviously they can afford some basic necessities. In fact, most poor people enjoy various luxuries, like basketballs and Nikes. If they say they can't afford immunizations, then stop buying sporting equipment and nice shoes, to start with.
quote:
Court representation: no public defenders? well damn, let's just throw tens of thousands of poor people in jail now! |
Absolutely! Let's throw everyone in jail who commits a crime!
Now, you might address the problem of the police arresting the wrong person, but look at it this way: Without someone like John Ashcroft in the Justice Department, there won't be a huge, government-mandated push for strict sentencing - it will be much easier for the truly innocent to walk out of court free men. Eliminate the War on Drugs, and it becomes even easier.
You also miss the fact that many, if not most, lawyers engage in pro bono work on a regular basis.
quote:
Capitalism that will destroy itself: Lasseiz-faire capitalism has the odd attribute of being so capitalistic, it can only destroy capitalism. You have complete free trade and no regulation at all and monopolies form... trusts form... and suddenly, competition is effectively destroyed. |
You might be surprised to know that the two eras most people view as "laissez faire" - that is, Victorian England and 1880s era US - were in fact not laissez faire at all. Monopolies formed because, to a large extent, the government was biased in favor of business, rather than staying neutral.
quote:
Libertarians, however, are against both public schools and vouchers. now, how can we say that every american has an oppurtunity to succeed through his hard-work if, as a child, he was too poor to attend school? |
Similarly, how can we say that everyone has the opportunity to own a nice car, if he can't immediately afford one? 
Look, there are ways to pay for education. Working, loans, charity, etc. And yes, I fully acknowledge that some people will be too poor to get any non-homeschool education. But not receiving an education is not a deprivation of rights, in any way, shape, or form.
quote:
now the libertarian response is all the tax money that would go towards education will go back to the pockets of the people. first of all, this is based on the assumption that the parents will spend the money on said child's education. Frankly, I'm positive a good-sized minority of parents wouldn't spend this money to send their children to school. |
Why should poor parenting decisions be my problem? If the parents use the money to buy dime bags for themselves and basketballs and Nikes for their kids, why should I have to shell out to pay for the kids' education? The money is there, it is simply being misused by the parents. And that, AS, is a parenting problem - not MY problem.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Vesayen
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Albert Speer
Court representation: no public defenders? well damn, let's just throw tens of thousands of poor people in jail now!
|
When crimes that only hurt yourself are made legal, the number of court cases will be cut drastically-wrongfull arrests will be cut as well.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
David Floyd
|
|
The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:31
|
|
quote:
Monopolies will form with government bias towards business and when there is no anti trust laws. If you dont want capitalism to collapse on itself, you will need anti trust laws. |
That may indeed be a possibility, however, we have never seen that happen. The point I was making was to shut down the most common "examples" of Victorian England and 1880s USA.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
St Leo
|
 |
Member of the Apolyton Social Democratic Party
Jul 2005
time: 00:31
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd Apparently you are unfamilar with the concept of user fees. |
You pay to call the police? Or the arrested person pays for the privilege of being arrested?
Yes, that system will be very effective at rehabilitating criminals into productive members of society.
quote:
But not receiving an education is not a deprivation of rights, in any way, shape, or form. |
Yes, it is.
Hugh Auld, with coarse and brutal language, told his wife that slaves should never be taught beyond their station. Not only was it illegal to teach them to read, but .. A slave, “given an inch, he will take an ell.” “If you learn him how to read, he’ll want to know how to write; and this accomplished, he’ll be running away with himself.”
Mr. Auld found out what was going on, and at once forbade Mrs. Auld to instruct me further, telling her, among other things, that it was unlawful, as well as unsafe, to teach a slave to read. To use his own words, further, he said, … “Now, if you teach that nigger (speaking of Douglas) how to read, there would be no keeping him. It would forever unfit him to be a slave. He would at once become unmanageable, and of no value to his master.” …
These words sank deep into my heart, stirred up sentiments within that lay slumbering, and called into existence an entirely new train of thought. It was a new and special revelation, explaining dark and mysterious things, with which my youthful understanding had struggled, but struggled in vain. I now understood what had been to me a most perplexing difficulty – to wit, the white man’s power to enslave the black man. It was a grand achievement, and I prized it highly. From that moment, I understood the pathway from slavery to freedom. …
Though conscious of the difficulty of learning without a teacher, I set out with high hope, and a fixed purpose, at whatever cost of trouble to learn how to read. The very decided manner with which he [Mr. Auld} spoke, and strove to impress his wife with the evil consequences of giving me instruction, served to convince me that he was deeply sensible of the truths he was uttering. It gave me the best assurance that I might rely with the utmost confidence on the results which, he said, would flow from teaching me to read. What he most dreaded, that I most desired. What he most loved, that I most hated. That which to him was a great evil, to be carefully shunned, was to me a great good, to be diligently sought; and the argument which he so warmly urged, against my learning to read, only served to inspire me with a desire and determination to learn.
Nathan Huggins, Slave and Citizen: The Life of Frederick Douglass, p. 5 (Boston: Little, Brown and Company, 1980).
|
|
| |
|
|
|
David Floyd
|
|
The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:31
|
|
quote:
Yes, that system will be very effective at rehabilitating criminals into productive members of society. |
Why should the rehabilitation of criminals be a primary aim of the judicial system? Prison exists for punishment - not to molly-coddle violent criminals.
As to education, your slavery example is, forgive the expression, idiotic. The fact that slavery exists means that someone's rights are being violated, not the fact that slaves aren't being educated.
The slaves rights are being violated by the fact that he is a slave, not by the fact that he isn't being taught how to read.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Vesayen
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
Why should poor parenting decisions be my problem? If the parents use the money to buy dime bags for themselves and basketballs and Nikes for their kids, why should I have to shell out to pay for the kids' education? The money is there, it is simply being misused by the parents. And that, AS, is a parenting problem - not MY problem. |
COULDNT of said it better myself!!!!!
BTW im a libretarian and I dont think a private police force is a good idea-or at least if there is, it would be low level with a higher level, public police force.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
David Floyd
|
|
The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:31
|
|
Well, the appeal of the FSP is not just in federal representation, but in state-level matters, too. Refusing to cooperate with federal law enforcement WRT the War on Drugs, preventing abuses of eminent domain, etc., are all things that could only be done with everyone in one state.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Vesayen
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
Monopolies will form with government bias towards business and when there is no anti trust laws. If you dont want capitalism to collapse on itself, you will need anti trust laws. |
Big corporations already run this country(America)-that would be different how?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
chegitz guevara
|
 |
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:31
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
Apparently you are unfamilar with the concept of user fees. |
Apparently you think the very poor don't deserve justice. I guess it's not one of those important rights.
quote:
Poor people in the US don't starve to death, nor do they walk around naked - obviously they can afford some basic necessities. |
No thanks to people like you. If the poor have some limited amount of extra money to spend, it's because of government programs like: welfare, unemployment, social security, minimum wage, housing assistance, medicare & medicaid, etc. It's these programs which allow the working class to demand more for the price of labor, so that some of the working poor can have something beyond the bare necessities (though there are plenty of people who simply cannot make ends meet, and don't have $200 Air Jordans.
quote:
You also miss the fact that many, if not most, lawyers engage in pro bono work on a regular basis. |
That doesn't mean they do it for poor people.
quote:
Monopolies formed because, to a large extent, the government was biased in favor of business, rather than staying neutral. |
The fact that they were biased in favor of big business doesn't mitage the natural tendency towards monopoly. Even without the police turning the other way, enacting tariffs, or stomping on working folks rights, there would be monopolies, trusts, and cartels. They just would have all been British instead of American (at least in the U.S.).
quote:
But not receiving an education is not a deprivation of rights, in any way, shape, or form. |
Without mandatory, public-financed education, capitalism couldn't have gotten this far. You can't innovate with ignorant people. Without state intervention, most children would have been working instead of learning. Our country would be much, much, poorer. This is an investment that returns many times the initial cost.
quote:
Why should poor parenting decisions be my problem? |
Because the result is crime. Crime is your problem, whether you wish to acknowledge it or not. It happens to you, and saying, after the fact, that he had no right to do that means nothing to the dead. Plus, there are injuries for which a person can never be adequately compensated. You might as well deny a bear the right to eat you for all the good denying a criminal the right to rob, assault, or kill you does. Education is the single best crime prevention program there is.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Lincoln
|
|
I have seen the effect of misguided social programs for the poor. In this area poor people used to dig up certain plants in the woods and sell them to nurseries etc.. They also used to raise hogs and chickens and support themselves. Now they sit on the porch with big fat bellies and wait for their welfare check and vote for the next Democrat that promises them more free stuff.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
David Floyd
|
|
The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:31
|
|
quote:
Apparently you think the very poor don't deserve justice. I guess it's not one of those important rights. |
The poor don't deserve any GOOD or SERVICE that they can't or won't pay for, the same as anyone else.
quote:
No thanks to people like you. If the poor have some limited amount of extra money to spend, it's because of government programs like: welfare, unemployment, social security, minimum wage, housing assistance, medicare & medicaid, etc. It's these programs which allow the working class to demand more for the price of labor, so that some of the working poor can have something beyond the bare necessities (though there are plenty of people who simply cannot make ends meet, and don't have $200 Air Jordans. |
Well, then, stop taxing their income, and everything else they buy, and they have extra money. Not enough for Air Jordans, I think we can all agree, but certainly enough for food and immunizations.
Oh, certainly, there will be some homeless people. And a very few people might even starve. But it isn't my responsibility to feed, clothe, and house these people, and in fact, I'd wager that most of these people are in their position because of their own poor decisions.
quote:
That doesn't mean they do it for poor people. |
Not for poor people charged with Class C misdemeanors, no 
quote:
The fact that they were biased in favor of big business doesn't mitage the natural tendency towards monopoly. Even without the police turning the other way, enacting tariffs, or stomping on working folks rights, there would be monopolies, trusts, and cartels. They just would have all been British instead of American (at least in the U.S.). |
Well, if you are allowed to say that laissez faire systems will fail, even though we've never had one, then I'm allowed to say that true communist systems will also fail, even though we've never had one of those, either
quote:
Without mandatory, public-financed education, capitalism couldn't have gotten this far. You can't innovate with ignorant people. Without state intervention, most children would have been working instead of learning. Our country would be much, much, poorer. This is an investment that returns many times the initial cost. |
That's not necessarily true. Children with families who could afford it wouldn't have been working, but rather have been in schools - much better schools than the public crap we have today. 
That's a fairly facetious statement, of course - but the fact remains, the only people who are entitled to an education are those who can afford it.
You can argue until you are blue in the face that mandatory public education funded through taxes made the US richer, but I'm not concerned with money, I'm concerned with freedom.
quote:
Because the result is crime. Crime is your problem, whether you wish to acknowledge it or not. It happens to you, and saying, after the fact, that he had no right to do that means nothing to the dead. Plus, there are injuries for which a person can never be adequately compensated. You might as well deny a bear the right to eat you for all the good denying a criminal the right to rob, assault, or kill you does. Education is the single best crime prevention program there is. |
People should be taught personal responsibility. If their parents don't teach it, then 20 years in prison for robbing my house ought to do the trick. And I don't care if a person who robs a grocery store was starving - he should STILL go to prison for a good long time.
But you're right. Crime is my problem. That's why there should be no restrictions on the type of weapons I can arm myself with. That way, when the starving guy breaks into my house in the middle of the night for food, I can shoot his ass without worrying about the knife or Saturday Night Special he may or may not be carrying.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Berzerker
|
 |
topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:31
|
|
chegitz - quote:
Apparently you think the very poor don't deserve justice. I guess it's not one of those important rights. |
Ah yes, and you send a large chunk of your income to S Africa so the poor get justice? Oh, that's their problem? Yes it is, isn't it... Hmm...
quote:
No thanks to people like you. |
There's a ******* left winger for ya, steal us blind to pay for all sorts of crap and then spit in our faces. No chegitz, it is because of people like DF because if we didn't exist, you a@@holes would have to pay for all that **** yourselves.
quote:
If the poor have some limited amount of extra money to spend, it's because of government programs like: welfare, unemployment, social security, minimum wage, housing assistance, medicare & medicaid, etc. |
Gee, and where do "we" get the money for all those programs? Oh yeah, "taxes". Here's an idea, don't "tax" away our money and we'll have more to spend on the necessities of life. That's a left winger for ya, tax people into poverty and then give 'em back some of their money in the name of "compassion".
quote:
It's these programs which allow the working class to demand more for the price of labor, so that some of the working poor can have something beyond the bare necessities (though there are plenty of people who simply cannot make ends meet, and don't have $200 Air Jordans. |
Those programs don't "allow" a working man to earn a living, his skills sold in the marketplace creates his wealth.
quote:
The fact that they were biased in favor of big business doesn't mitage the natural tendency towards monopoly. Even without the police turning the other way, enacting tariffs, or stomping on working folks rights, there would be monopolies, trusts, and cartels. They just would have all been British instead of American (at least in the U.S.). |
This natural tendency toward monopolies is mitigated by the marketplace, that's why some corporations seek to create government biases by bribing politicians.
quote:
Without mandatory, public-financed education, capitalism couldn't have gotten this far. You can't innovate with ignorant people. Without state intervention, most children would have been working instead of learning. Our country would be much, much, poorer. This is an investment that returns many times the initial cost. |
A desire to learn creates education, not government schools. Technology and the market is what determines educational opportunities, not government schools. We have government schools and we see a surplus of people who are qualified to teach or run for Congress and not much else. But you didn't refute DF's assertion that we have no right to force others to pay for our education, you merely argued we should legalise stealing because you like the alleged result.
quote:
Because the result is crime. Crime is your problem, whether you wish to acknowledge it or not. It happens to you, and saying, after the fact, that he had no right to do that means nothing to the dead. Plus, there are injuries for which a person can never be adequately compensated. You might as well deny a bear the right to eat you for all the good denying a criminal the right to rob, assault, or kill you does. Education is the single best crime prevention program there is. |
That's a great argument, if you don't let us steal your money now to educate our children, it will be stolen later by our children. Is that a contract? If so, can we sue the parents of children who commit crimes for breach of contract? Because we are being ripped off to pay for the government schools and by the products of those schools.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Berzerker
|
|
topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:31
|
|
Thieven - quote:
I think DF makes an interesting point- libertarians don't care about anyone else. The concept of freedom they espouse begins and ends with themelves. |
When slaves were asked what they want, did they say, free that other guy? You may not like the idea of being free, but libertarians want you to be free too. If you decide freedom is too scary, then choose servitude, but don't force the rest of us to join you.
quote:
There is no hint of a society in their ramblings, just a desire for anarchy. I suppose this desire is fueled by a wish that they will come out on top of the heap once the power vaccuums are filled. |
"Society"? What does that mean? Oh yeah, "society" means you get to steal from us in the name of society.
quote:
That's why I've always called them libertyrants. In their hearts they believe they are yours masters. |
 Yes, we want you to leave us alone and we will do the same for you and that means we want to be your master.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
David Floyd
|
|
The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:31
|
|
Theban,
quote:
I think DF makes an interesting point- libertarians don't care about anyone else. |
Actually we care primarily about ourselves, in that we feel that it is best to independently pursue our own self interests, rather than pursuing what we imgaine to be the interests of others - those interests are better left up to that one person.
quote:
The concept of freedom they espouse begins and ends with themelves. |
No, actually I believe that everyone has equal rights. But I'm not going to give up my rights just because you say I should.
quote:
There is no hint of a society in their ramblings, just a desire for anarchy. |
No, anarchy is what anarchists want.
quote:
That's why I've always called them libertyrants. In their hearts they believe they are yours masters. |
That's idiotic. Find one Libertarian who believes he is the "master" of another. Please. I'm waiting.
che,
quote:
Libertarians are hypocrites, because they claim their morality and rights are absolute, but then draw a line in the sand at reparations for the decendents of the wronged. "Oh, it would be too difficult to figure out who proffited from slavery/genocide/invasion/theft by government and who the decendents are and who were should divvy up the reparations, so we just won't do it." |
Actually one good reason for opposing reparations for slavery is that the former slaves are FAR, FAR, FAR better off being in this country - that is, being descendants of slaves - than they would be if their anscestors were never enslaved. They themselves are profiting from the slavery of their ancestors.
But if they insist on going back to West Africa, I certainly won't stop them.
|
|
| |
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:31.
Apolyton Time is 00:31. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
05-11-2003 07:14
|