05-11-2003 10:25									#1
	Science Ministry's recommendations leaked! Scandal! Government rocked! Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

As there's no time to post a poll, I felt that in the interests of open government and democracy, that I would post the Science Ministry's private and extremely secret recommendations to the President here.

I'm expecting the secret police to be at my door at any moment... quick, read this and discuss, before the inevitable government crackdown!

**********************

El Presidente,

Your Science Minister and his cabal of mad scientists present this, their recommendation to the new government:

Our goal is global conquest, not city growth or the conquest of space. We cannot build wonders or caravans. So only some of the techs are useful. Techs useful in themselves are:

Advanced Flight
Combined Arms
Communism
Espionage
Flight
Labour Union
Machine Tools
Mobile Warfare
Robotics
Rocketry
Stealth

The remaining techs allow us to build improvements (Superhighways, Supermarket), Wonders (Cure for Cancer), spacecraft parts, or other non-relevant items (Freight, any ships).

Out of all these techs, only Communism stands out as a non-military tech. It would allow us to have a government option other than Fundy. It would allow us a better science rate than Fundy. It allows vet spies. It allows some free unit support (3) but no cheap Fundamentalist units. Mike's Chapel would keep most of our cities happy, and martial law would do the rest.

Out of the military techs, Combined Arms, Advanced Flight, Labour Union, Rocketry, Robotics and Stealth are too far out of reach to worry about now.

So our real choices are:

Communism (1 tech away)
Espionage (2 techs away)
Flight (4 techs away)
Machine Tools (3 techs away)
Mobile Warfare (7 techs away )

Luckily, all of these have Industrialization as a prerequisite... which we are now researching.

Communism is a direct prerequisite to Espionage.

Flight requires Corporation (useless tech) Refining (pretty useless) and Combustion (useless tech).

Machine Tools requires Electricity and Steel, both useless unless we want to build a battle fleet out of Vetkovia

Mobile Warfare requires Corporation, Refining, and Combustion (like Flight) as well as Electricity, Steel and Automobile (much like Machine Tools). It will also take, obviously, a long time to research, and we could easily be forced to deviate from the tech path (techs not being offered to research) or distracted by other options (Machine Tools and/or Flight). MW therefore to me, seems a poor goal, as some other equally useful techs are available sooner.

Therefore, I recommend Communism be our next choice, followed by Espionage. Communism gives us options, and Espionage will be useful soonest (since we have Diplos which will auto-upgrade).

If we really want to get Machine Tools (or Flight, which I would consider useful only for scouting hidden AI cities - and we'd have to build Fighters from scratch), it would probably be faster to get Communism and then switch governments, which would speed our science rate, than to try and research the 3 (or 4) extra techs in Fundy.

If Communism is unavailable for research, either Steel or Electricity would be recommended, on the path to Machine Tools (our SMC has indicated a desire for big machines that go 'boom').

As to whether we do research:

Currently, our science rate is 0%, meaning we will learn Industrialization approximately never.

Well, the Science Ministry recommends a science rate of 40% science (40% luxuries, 20% tax). Yes, that cuts our income per turn from about 1500 to about 900. But what do we do with the income? We bribe cities. Spies bribe cities cheaper than Diplomats do (at 5/6 the cost). Vet spies do it even cheaper (2/3 the cost). Thus, the lessened income is almost completely offset by the savings in bribery. I shouldn't even mention the other advantages Spies have, but I will: they get a free 'Investigate City' (helps when planning an attack), they can sabotage specific improvements (go after those walls!), can survive after attempting an action (we won't run out of them as fast), they look great in a cocktail dress ...

So boost the Science rate, already! And we may yet get Spies and Artillery.

-Six

Last edited by Six Thousand Year Old Man on 05-11-2003 at 10:30

	05-11-2003 10:49									#2
	Tired of ads?

* Ben Kenobi feels this is an excellent compromise between playing the turn and allowing for public input.



As for your recommendations, I agree wholeheartedly with spies since it looks like we will be sabatoging many city walls.

And I am not an El Presidente. WE are a Fundamentalist government, not some Heathen democracy. The people need someone to look after them, would you prefer that they dictate the terms?

For this grave insult to my personage, I leave you to the mercy of this thread and whatever suggestions come to the minds of our concerned citizens.

	05-11-2003 16:36									#3
	Inflate your Upload Space

Damn!
I was hoping the recommendations would be rubbish and we'd see the guilty parties publically humiliated.
I'd saved loads of mature tomatoes especially.

I like your style o scientific fogey.
But I'm also tempted to take a useless tech that will kill the Great Library. I realise that most of the other civs will be sharing techs like nobody's business but the death of the GL would be an advantage.

	05-11-2003 17:28									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Since the Science Minister's recommendation to seek Communism and Spies mirrors my own suggestions of the past, I think I will speakup in support of it.

	05-11-2003 18:06									#5
	Inflate your Upload Space

The War Ministry supports the drive for Expionage

	06-11-2003 02:26									#6
	Support Apolyton

Yes, I support 40% lux, 40% sci, 20% tax.

I was an advocate of zero science while I was city planner, but at that time no democracy existed in the world. I would like to see more libraries and an occasional university to speed up our science even more.

Keep building tax/lux improvements, forget about colosseums (banks and stock exchanges are much more efficient now). Build roads in grass and plains squares. Work trade specials.

If we do this way, we should be able to improve our science to 6 maybe even 5 turns. Impressive for a fundy.

Even though I command the diplomats, the bribery of Pharsalos, my long lost quest, is just a distant dream now.

	06-11-2003 04:01									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Well, perhaps we won't get to bribe Pharsalos, we can certainly attempt to capture the city by force.



I'm looking forward to playing my turn tomorrow, so I want to see all my reports by then.

	06-11-2003 06:25									#8
	Full PM-box? Change here!

* Sparrowhawk the office of the City Planner agrees with these plans, but votes that the Science Minister be asked to resign his term effective November 30.

(actually the change in rates to 20/40/40 is one I have voted for in the past...if we can't bribe, we won't need the money)

Thanks for the thread STYOM, it made me laugh after a long day

	06-11-2003 07:28									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

We should take Pharsalos *only* when the city becomes available to taking in the normal course of absorbing the Greek cities into our empire.

It made sense to get at Stuttgart because it was at the edge of the German civ (and turned out to be oddly isolated - a strange place to build a Wonder) and we could defend it once taken. The same is not true for Pharsalos.

	06-11-2003 11:04									#10
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by ljcvetko If we do this way, we should be able to improve our science to 6 maybe even 5 turns. Impressive for a fundy.

Or science every 4-5 turns in Communism, without any additional improvements (science every 3 turns if we instituted a crash library/university building program, which I don't feel is absolutely necessary).

If we want to get Machine Tools before the war is over, we won't get there in Fundy. Even at 40% science, we're talking another 40-50 years to get to Machine Tools (9 turns/tech). Detour to Communism first, and we could probably get Espionage as well as Machine Tools in about half that time (6 techs in 25-30 years).

If we plan to stay in Fundy there really isn't much point in researching anything beyond Espionage... by the time we learned MT the game would be over.

* Six Thousand Year Old Man quickly abandons the safe house from which this was posted, before the secret police arrive.

	06-11-2003 12:53									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

On the second thought, hold that slider!!!

We need exceptional amount of money to bribe Hannover!!!! Around 9000!!!!!

So save the money, stop the research, until we can switch to communism for better science.

	06-11-2003 14:53									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

But surely stopping research stops us from getting Communism too?

We don't need to bribe everything, and that's a HELL of a lot of cash. Unless we can do it in a few turns, surely there's a way we can take them on with, oh, I don't know... perhaps the Imperium's glorious and heavily decorated military?

	06-11-2003 15:05									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Our discoveries under a celebrating Fundy is at a decent rate, so I don't really see the need for communism.

I just need sparrowhawk's report and then I can head to bed to play tomorrow.

	06-11-2003 15:54									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Yes, but I would like a poll on this.

Everybody voted for the bribery of Hannover. We must accept the will of the people and bribe it. But as soon as we get Hannover, an issue arises: Are we staying fundi or not, since we have the statue and can experiment.

I think we should boost our science switching to communism, produce vet spies and have relatively smaller army which can do the job more quickly.

And bloody most importantly: Settlers eat one food!!!

	06-11-2003 19:42									#15
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Our discoveries under a celebrating Fundy is at a decent rate, so I don't really see the need for communism.

9 turns per tech isn't a decent rate, IMO.

Re Hannover:

Frankly, I wouldn't bribe anything that costs 9000 g... I mean, we could rushbuy 15 diplomats with half that money (@ 300 each), and be assured of taking out the walls that way, and then just walk in. It might take a few turns to prepare an attack that way, but it'll also take a few turns to collect 9K in gold.

For that matter, if we dip-bombed the city, we'd probably a) destroy a courthouse or b) throw the city into disorder or c) both. Any of these eventualities would cut the cost of bribing the city dramatically.

And as I noted before... with a vet spy, the cost of Hannover would drop by 1/3. So why not wait until Communism/Espionage, if we're going to be bribing people?

9000 g is 6 years tax surplus!

With all the existing military resources we have, and an excellent SMC, it makes no sense to spend 9000 g on one city.

Maybe we do need a poll on this.

	06-11-2003 20:23									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I didn't take into consideration possible courthouse.

If there is a courthouse in Hannover the cost would rise to 14443.

I don't see how destrioying anything but courthouse, if there is one there, could possibly influence the price of Hannover.

Even though the cost in turns is comparable, I think bribing it is a better option than taking it by force for three reasons.

1) We get to keep the infrastructure intact.
2) We get to keep the troops inside.
3) Our troops and diplos are too far away to be able to mount a serious campaign. So bribing is faster.

Last edited by Ljube on 06-11-2003 at 20:28

	06-11-2003 20:32									#17
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I didnt calculate the cost of Bribing Hannover as the people voted overwhelmingly for this plan.

But we can just as easily do the job with about 15 engineers, 10 vet attackers and 6-8 dips.
Seeing bribing would cost 9000 gold we could just as well use the money to buy those units and more.

I do still support the quick capture of Hannover, not only does it give us the chance to go for Commie (With our unitcount it doesnt realy matter in production but when celebrating our techrate will skyrocket )

Another benifit is that once Germans fall out of Fundi they can never go back

	06-11-2003 20:40									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

If we decide to bribe Hannover, we are 5 turns away from communism.

If not, we are around 18 turns away from communism.

I say bribe Hannover, switch to communism, switch to canon, research espionage and Machine Tools and kill them all.

	06-11-2003 20:43									#19
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Bribe or conquer the city,but take it asap I say

	06-11-2003 20:56									#20
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I favour capture, as opposed to bribing. 9000 g would buy a lot of attackers. Yes, the troops are far away... but it will also take a few more turns to collect 9000 g. That's assuming 9000 g is the price. If it's more... then military action is that much more economical.

	06-11-2003 21:19									#21
	Got spare money?

9000 G is far too high a price for merely 1 among many cities. In light of this information, the question of Hannover should be re-opened.

	06-11-2003 22:22									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Hannover is not merely 1 among many cities. The bribery of Hannover will speed up our research drastically.

We have no need of money since all our enemies are democracies, so don't be deterred by the high price.

Bribe Hannover!

And there is no choice actually, because the citizens have already decided to bribe it.

	06-11-2003 22:35									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by ljcvetko Bribe Hannover! And there is no choice actually, because the citizens have already decided to bribe it.

Well, yes. Except that the citizens didn't know how much it would cost. If it were 2000 g, I'd be in favour of bribing it, too. I was expecting something in the area of 1000-4000 g.

Given that there has been a lot of opposition to the bribe plan in various threads (now that the cost estimate is in ), I think the issue should be revisited.

	06-11-2003 22:45									#24
	Support Apolyton

I'm sure our president will make the right decission

	07-11-2003 00:59									#25
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Here's the deal, sparrowhawk wants more time to complete the very important cityplanner report.

Once I get that report, I can start the turn.

As for those clamouring for a communist government, we just got Mikes chapel under a Fundamentalist government earning us a huge amount of cash each turn. A Communist government would likely be cash strapped, or at the very least, much less of a surplus than we currently enjoy.

	07-11-2003 02:52									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Maybe I should have kept my nice, cosy city planner position instead of trying hard for this one. That one is a straightforward job. Even if you have some disagreement with your president, it's always minor disagreement. No high profile policy issues like here.

I think we should poll if we want to become communists.
The money won't be the problem and science will be excellent. We can always switch back to fundamentalism once we discover all military techs we need (machine tools and espionage).

But I would rather stay in communism for three reasons:

1) Engineers eat one food = We can support more engineers per city
2) Max distance is 10 = No bribery of our cities or troops (expensive)
3) Spies are veterans

And we can do the same job with smaller army and more engineers and spies.

	07-11-2003 03:07									#27
	Tired of ads?

ljcvetko:

1. Settlers eat 2 food under communism.
2. We are already difficult to bribe. Communism will not substantially increase our resistance to counter-bribery.
3. Spies are vets.

I can only see three as a valid reason to switch, something I don't see making up for the lack of cash from Mike's Chapel.

Oh, and the civilopedia is wrong about settlers eating 1 food under communism. Try it yourself.

	07-11-2003 03:41									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi ljcvetko: 1. Settlers eat 2 food under communism. Oh, and the civilopedia is wrong about settlers eating 1 food under communism. Try it yourself.

I have just checked one of my saves where I'm communist and yes, settlers eat two food.

I have never paid much attention to it in my MP games; it has been a while since I have played a single player game, so I simply read civilopedia and produced an error. Communism doesn't seem that appealing to me any more. You could have told me this earlier.

	07-11-2003 05:27									#29
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Eh, I'm just a Jedi, not a mindreader.

	07-11-2003 12:00									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Communism or Fundamentalism, it doesn't really matter much, we'll win either way.

How we'll win is the issue. If we plan to stay in Fundy, we might as well keep science at 0. By the time we learn Machine Tools in Fundy, we probably won't have need for Artillery. If we're staying in Fundy, all we need to do is keep building units in masses and steamroll the opponent. Messy, but effective.

(Incremental rushbuying is easier in Fundy because of the Fanatic. If a city produces at least one net shield per turn, we can have a new Cavalry in that city every 2 turns at the cost of <160 g. (rushbuying costs 60 g for the Fanatic, and then 25 g per additional row of shields, up to 60). With our 1500/turn surplus, we could have 9-10 new Cavalry per turn. If we tried to get Artillery while in Fundy, it would take 30 turns of research, if we're lucky. The 300 or so Cavalry we could build in that timeframe would win easily.)

If we move to Communism, we can be much more efficient (Spies are vastly more efficient than Diplomats, and Artillery have more than double the hitting power of Cannon (Att 10 fp 2 vs Att 8 fp 1). Artillery should take out Riflemen behind walls at about a 1:1 ratio. We can win stylishly. We won't run out of cash doing it, either.

As a citizen, I just want to see decisions made based on all available information, and I hate to see waste. A high science rate in Fundy for prolonged periods is a waste. And 9000 g on one city is a waste.

So if we want Hannover, we should try to put it into disorder to bribe it as cheaply as possible, or take it by force. And if we want to shoot for Machine Tools, we should do it in Communism, not Fundy.