06-11-2003 04:41									#1
	What's the best UU now? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

My bet goes for Conquistadores! Avaliable with Astronomy and with no map trading until Navigation, they are REALLY useful now!

Now you have an increased chance to have them before the enemy has pikemen. Just unload some of them in a new continent with civilizations not very advanced in science and see the results...

	06-11-2003 04:54									#2
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Why not beeline for cavs and use them instead??

	06-11-2003 04:57									#3
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Hum, good point on less advanced enemys: The major way to catch up with techs if you weren't the first to discover the other contientant was to buy the cheapest contact from the player who did for your WM, then use that contact for tech, WM, or contact trading.

This postponement to the middle age (combined with max research time now 50 turns) delays all those tactics, grealy helping out the Conquistador.

	06-11-2003 04:59									#4
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I think the Gaellic swordsman is a darn good contender.

Pre-C3C I would say Siphahi (loooong life-span and very effective in SP games. )

	06-11-2003 06:59									#5
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Blitzing Cossack.

	06-11-2003 07:19									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Novaya Havoc Blitzing Cossack.

I was tempted to say blitzing cossack but often they're going to take too much damage on the first attack to be used more than once per turn.

The Immortal is still #1.

	06-11-2003 07:20									#7
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I don't know about best, but I was all set to like the Enkidu. till I realized it would be GA before you put your boots on. It would have been fun rush with it I suspect.

	06-11-2003 08:05									#8
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Gallic or Cossack.

	06-11-2003 09:04									#9
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I like Berserks.

	06-11-2003 09:15									#10
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What about Mayan Jav Throwers? I have no experience and so won't express an opinion -- but I am intrigued by the enslavement capability and would think that the opportunity for several extra slave workers in an ancient archer rush would be powerful (albeit less so with an industrious civ).

Blitzing cossacks make the mouth water however . . .

Catt

	06-11-2003 09:32									#11
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Aren't the Mayans only in one of the scenarios?

	06-11-2003 09:40									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Catt What about Mayan Jav Throwers? I have no experience and so won't express an opinion -- but I am intrigued by the enslavement capability and would think that the opportunity for several extra slave workers in an ancient archer rush would be powerful (albeit less so with an industrious civ).

1. Javelineers cost 30 Shields.
2. Enslavement is a 1 in 3 chance.

I'm not saying it's a bad UU, just that it takes some work to shine.


Dominae

	06-11-2003 09:48									#13
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It doesn't seem to good after all

	06-11-2003 10:29									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae 1. Javelineers cost 30 Shields. 2. Enslavement is a 1 in 3 chance. I'm not saying it's a bad UU, just that it takes some work to shine.

Yes, I can see your points. Only a ways into my initial game, but the %$#@! 30 shield cost is painful. Combined with the lack of cheap barracks (no militaristic) I despair at building a powerful Jav Thrower force for a mid / late ancient age war. OTOH, I've only killed two barbs and have enslaved one barbarian worker (enslavement works against barbs!), and there are a lot of enemy regular warriors running around which seem to have "enslaved worker" tatoo-ed on their chests.

Silly side-note: I beelined to Math for the Zeus wonder (and free ancient cavs) without remembering that I need ivory to build the wonder -- ivory is not yet seen anywhere and my continent-mates are not building the wonder, so I have a palace pre-build working towards who-knows-what.

Second silly side-note: With the Portuguese, Incas, and Rome on my continent, I was the third civ to discover Mathematics (and ivory is as yet unknown on our landmass) -- so either a hut gave Math or the AI civs are hot and heavy after Math in C3C.

Catt

	06-11-2003 10:44									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Catt What about Mayan Jav Throwers? I have no experience and so won't express an opinion -- but I am intrigued by the enslavement capability and would think that the opportunity for several extra slave workers in an ancient archer rush would be powerful (albeit less so with an industrious civ). Catt

I can't recall the Mayan's civ traits offhand, but I would say that industrious would boost the value of an enslavement rush. You're getting a lot more from each worker you capture.

I'm going to have to give the Mayan's a try, the sheer fun-factor potential of the Jav thrower is awesome.

	06-11-2003 12:53									#16
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I sort of headed for Math as well and found most seemed to have it about the same time as I did, even the ones I found isolated. I have those funny boats that seem impervious to sea tiles and are available so early, they caught me unaware. I checked on one city and it was already making them. So I get fast contacts.

	06-11-2003 14:45									#17
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I play with similar rules for a long time, and there is often a big tech gap between advanced and backward Civs in my games. Bu even then, Conquistadores aren't that great to conquer fledgling Civs. The 3 attack and 2 defense make them vulnerable even to low tech opponents like Archers, Spearmen, or Horsemen.

For the same price, knights do the job much better

Last edited by Spiffor on 06-11-2003 at 15:57

	06-11-2003 15:32									#18
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I still like the Sipahi for raw power. An Army of them is a truly awesome force.

	06-11-2003 16:29									#19
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On the right map, that new English Man-O-War certainly isn't the BEST UU in the world, but it's certainly no longer a dog, either. On the right map, that thing rocks, especially since the obsolescence brought by ironclads is no longer either certain or near immediate.

When you combine this with the fact that the English are now Seafaring and Commercial (which is one hell of a powerful commerce upgrade), the English are definately in the running for being a much better civ, especially on archipelago maps.

	06-11-2003 17:07									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Catt Yes, I can see your points. Only a ways into my initial game, but the %$#@! 30 shield cost is painful. Combined with the lack of cheap barracks (no militaristic) I despair at building a powerful Jav Thrower force for a mid / late ancient age war. OTOH, I've only killed two barbs and have enslaved one barbarian worker (enslavement works against barbs!), and there are a lot of enemy regular warriors running around which seem to have "enslaved worker" tatoo-ed on their chests. ... Catt

Enslaving barbarians? Now THAT seems powerful: no triggering og golden age, experiencing mil promotions, razing camps and most importantly: free workers.

And we all now -in normal game situations- there is never a shortage on barbarians.



AJ

	06-11-2003 20:22									#21
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Don't forget the biggest advantage of enslaving barbs: no diplomatic penalty for having barbarian slaves! Taking slaves from an AI empire makes them hate you, but barbs are outside the diplomatic model, so you get no penalty! I am pretty sure that the guys at Firaxis are going to realize that Barbarian Enslavement is an exploit and will probably remove it in a patch.

	06-11-2003 21:03									#22
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It's not a UU really, but I'd say the little boat (curragh? carrack?) is hands down the best new unit in the game.

	06-11-2003 21:46									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Gallic or Cossack.

Agreed, IMO Gallic rocks. I just miss the old Celt traits and won't them that much now.

	06-11-2003 22:13									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Ijuin Don't forget the biggest advantage of enslaving barbs: no diplomatic penalty for having barbarian slaves! Taking slaves from an AI empire makes them hate you, but barbs are outside the diplomatic model, so you get no penalty! I am pretty sure that the guys at Firaxis are going to realize that Barbarian Enslavement is an exploit and will probably remove it in a patch.

Nah. Those barb slaves work sooooooo sloooooow. Plus, it's only a 1 in 3 chance anyway.

Motown

	06-11-2003 22:36									#25
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Gallic kicks ass. and their traits are killer too. They're far better than the PTW Celts, for sure.

	06-11-2003 23:11									#26
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Argghhhhhh !!! I want Conquests !

	07-11-2003 00:32									#27
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I'd definitely like to check out the new 40-shield Gallic under the new 3g-per-shield upgrade cost system before saying for sure, but I still think Riders will be tough to top.

-Arrian

	07-11-2003 00:43									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I'd definitely like to check out the new 40-shield Gallic under the new 3g-per-shield upgrade cost system before saying for sure, but I still think Riders will be tough to top. -Arrian

I played a MP game last night and it was 1.5g-per-shield. Is this a difference between SP and MP?

Motown

	07-11-2003 00:50									#29
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Hmm?

Warrior = 10 shields
GS = 40 shields

30 shields difference. In PTW, the cost of upgrading a 10-shield unit to a 40-shield unit was 60 gold (2g * 30 shields). With Leonardos it was 30 gold, obviously.

I read somewhere that upgrade cost in Conquest was increased, such that upgrading a warrior to a Gallic would cost 90 gold (3g * 30 shields).

Would accelerated production have something to do with it?

-Arrian

	07-11-2003 01:04									#30
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Accelerated production is turned on by default for all MP Conquest scenarios (confirmed in the party chat the other day), so that would account for it.