07-11-2003 06:26									#31
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS Whilst abortion isn't necessarily a good thing, sometimes it is the right thing to do. For a start there are too many people on this planet in the first place, so getting rid of a few unwanted ones is a step in the right direction if you ask me.

Which begs the question:
Who wants you, anyway?

Why is sentience a qualifier? Especially given that a fetus's lack of sentience is a temporary condition; it will develop a will and self-awareness over time. Also, isn't killing a lifeform before it grows into a form you would hesitate to kill just a preemptive attack on your own conscience? Like I said, it's the same life, just at different stages.

And thank you for the etymology.

	07-11-2003 06:29									#32
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You don't need to kill a fetus in most situations. Just remove the parasite from the womb, and it'll die all on its own, because its not viable life.

	07-11-2003 06:31									#33
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quote: A 2 cell zygote doesn't classify as being a human being... takes more than those two cells to become a viable human being.

Mr. Baggins:

Actually, the zygote has only 1 cell, formed from the union of gametes from the egg and sperm, which cease to exist at conception.

2 cells would be classified as an embryo, as cell division has already started.

Now as for viability, what does it measure? It has nothing to do with the person, but everything to do with the environment. Could you survive at the North Pole? No. The environment for an unborn child is the womb.

I suggest you read my argument more carefully Mr. Baggins, I do not say that a zygote is currently sentient, but rather he or she has the capacity to become sentient, just like an infant.

	07-11-2003 06:32									#34
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There is no such thing as a right to life. Every day we define people in different groups, and a fetus is not defined as a person, so this notion that this is about taking a human life to me can only be backed by religious conviction mostly.

I agree with Freako, the either or arguement is absurd: abortion is a legislative issue, not a constitutional one, or an either or one.

	07-11-2003 06:34									#35
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The parasite merely has the potential to become. Its not enevitable.

I did, btw, read. You said that having human DNA somehow made the parasite a human.

	07-11-2003 06:36									#36
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins You don't need to kill a fetus in most situations. Just remove the parasite from the womb, and it'll die all on its own, because its not viable life.

You don't need to "kill" a human either, then. If I left you tied to a tree for five weeks you'd die on your own. Like Ben said, exposure to a hostile environment counts as killing.

Oh, and let's see some actual arguments, GePap. Condescension we're used to, but unjustified condescension is a bit much.

	07-11-2003 06:40									#37
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There is a marked difference between a parasite with a dependence on a host organism, and a viable life form outside of a host.

Given your situation, I could untie myself, and then subsequently feed myself, after, of course, beating the snot out of you for tying me up.

Is a fetus self-reliant? Capable of changing its own circumstance?

	07-11-2003 06:45									#38
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quote: I did, btw, read. You said that having human DNA somehow made the parasite a human.

Mr. Baggins:

That is the biological definition, no?

I suggest you redirect your argument to personhood unless you wish to continue picking fights with biology.

Neither is it inevitable that an infant will become an adult. Should then all infants not be considered persons?

quote: Every day we define people in different groups, and a fetus is not defined as a person,

Gepap:

That's precisely the former status of women. Do you believe that society has the right to abitrarily classify people as non-persons?

	07-11-2003 06:48									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Elok You don't need to "kill" a human either, then. If I left you tied to a tree for five weeks you'd die on your own. Like Ben said, exposure to a hostile environment counts as killing. Oh, and let's see some actual arguments, GePap. Condescension we're used to, but unjustified condescension is a bit much.

What factual arguements exist about abortion? So you can say: at 7 months a fetus can fell pain..so what? So can a 50 year old man, and that 50 year old man has no right to live either. While in the pre-amble it may speak of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, the state has the right to take life, has the right to deputize people to take life..in essence, there is NO right to life for any human being. THe very fact that people speak about it using the US constitution is meaningless...that constitution governs 5% of humanity. The vast, vast majority of abortions happen in the third world. If anyone claims this is a universal issue, then a non-universal matter like the consitution of one single state means nothing.

That is what it simply boil down to: all rights are conditional, creation of human society, not in any way distinct from social existence. So as I said, I agree wityh Freako: abortion should be a simple legislative matter, and any debates about the either-or nature of the debate are totally faith based, be it a religious or secualr faith one uses as their justification.

Oh, and get the stick out of your butt, and learn what is condecension and what is not, BOY. (note, that was it)

	07-11-2003 06:49									#40
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A parasite is a symbiotic life form that coexists with a host to its own benefit and the host's detriment. The fetus exists as part of a natural biological process to continue the parents' bloodline, which is normally one of the main goals of living things in general. Pretty big difference.

And if you insist on being literal, we'll change the scenario. How about if I dumped you off on the moon without a spacesuit? Like the fetus, you would be incapable of living long enough to "change your own circumstance." This argument is pretty asinine IMO, but what about the elderly, the comatose, the mentally ill? What about the infant out of the womb? What's the distinction?

	07-11-2003 06:52									#41
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Please don't waste our time with Nietzsche-babble.

	07-11-2003 07:01									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Elok Please don't waste our time with Nietzsche-babble.

Nietzsche babble? NOw you are reaching, specially since Nietzsche would have never accepted the notion that the state and or society are a vital inintegral life of humanity (fi you take the time to read what he thought of states or societies).

IN India and China there are huge numbers of abortions by couples trying to get boys and not girls, far more abortions than are preformed in the US, and the political debate that rages is not about the "right to life" of fetuses, but of the possible dire demographic consequences. Yet last time I looked people in India and China are sentient human beings...and yet somewhow they don't get consumed by this moralizing here in the US and a few other spots.

For the greater part of human existance, and in the greater part even today of humanity this is not an issue of "rights" but of what policies a society should adopt and promote to remain vital and continuing. So what makes the few people out in the fringes both of humanity and time that argue like this was some apocalyptic battle?

	07-11-2003 07:05									#43
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So you'd argue that a single cell, with DNA, was human... or specifically.. a human.

That is... a bipedal primate mammal?

So... if I took a cell from a pig. Removed the DNA. Then inserted human DNA. Would that be human?

---

And the distintion in environment is that I can take action to avoid such environments. Like not getting on a space ship in the first place, without knowing I'll have some method of support.

There are humans who are imperfect, who are unable to sustain themselves. These aren't analogous to the fetus however; a 1 day old fetus, no matter how perfect, could not survive outside its mother.

	07-11-2003 08:08									#44
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I would argue that the fetus does not have rights until it is able to feel emotion. (3 months after conception seems to be the magic number here. They first learn to cry and smile about then.) But even then, it's not that special. Dogs have emotions too.

I think viability is another important point in the development, and at that point it acquires more rights.

	07-11-2003 11:09									#45
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A fetus is not a person. A person is sentient, a fetus, embryo, or zygote is not.

So lets stick to facts, 'k?

	07-11-2003 11:54									#46
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quote: Mo*ral"i*ty\, n.; pl. Moralities. [L. moralitas: cf. F. moralit['e].] 1. The relation of conformity or nonconformity to the moral standard or rule; quality of an intention, a character, an action, a principle, or a sentiment, when tried by the standard of right.

I realize that Elok wants to dispense with moral arguements in this thread and "cut the crap", but the problem is that it IS a moralistic issue. And the only answer is:

In this country and in this day, abortion is legal, and tolerated by the majority of citizens.
Killing a person, child or elderly, is illegal, and not tolerated.

That's it. Case closed.

So I'm not sure what medium Elok wants to use for his arguement. Constitutional? Probably not. I can't think of an article or amendment allowing for abortion. Legal? Well, yes, there's Roe vs. Wade. Convenience? Not having a baby is less strenuous on the resources of parents and society. Benefits to society? A mixed bag: Less strain, but less unwanted youth to employ in menial labor positions. Immigrant workers should cover that w/o too much trouble, though. Also abortion removes a large section of the criminal underclass.

	07-11-2003 12:34									#47
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Killing a viable human being is normally unjustified. However, if it is necessary to protect the life or health of a mother, I would agree that it should be permitted.

Until the fetus is viable, the mother should have "discretion" to entertain abortion for any reason.

	07-11-2003 13:18									#48
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MrBaggins:

quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins Morality is relative. The question should be should modern society do that. The answer is yes, right now, because there are very few blind handicapped people. If the number got so large as to overwhelm society (as allowing all currently arborted babies to live would,) then I'd say... no.

a) the number of babies isn't as large as to overwhelm society.
b) Imagine you're stranded on an island. you and the crippled person. shouldn't you feed him?

quote: Is a fetus self-reliant? Capable of changing its own circumstance?

irrelevant. same applies to babies.

GePap:

quote: What factual arguements exist about abortion? So you can say: at 7 months a fetus can fell pain..so what? So can a 50 year old man, and that 50 year old man has no right to live either. While in the pre-amble it may speak of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, the state has the right to take life, has the right to deputize people to take life..in essence, there is NO right to life for any human being.

I guess if the state would be governed by laws that say to ... kill all black people, for example, you'd be ok with it, too? and if not why not?

quote: That is what it simply boil down to: all rights are conditional, creation of human society, not in any way distinct from social existence. So as I said, I agree wityh Freako: abortion should be a simple legislative matter, and any debates about the either-or nature of the debate are totally faith based, be it a religious or secualr faith one uses as their justification.

I am sorry, but that's bull. you have to solve a moral issue here. Or do you think that murder should be a legislative matter, either?

quote: IN India and China there are huge numbers of abortions by couples trying to get boys and not girls, far more abortions than are preformed in the US, and the political debate that rages is not about the "right to life" of fetuses, but of the possible dire demographic consequences. Yet last time I looked people in India and China are sentient human beings...and yet somewhow they don't get consumed by this moralizing here in the US and a few other spots. For the greater part of human existance, and in the greater part even today of humanity this is not an issue of "rights" but of what policies a society should adopt and promote to remain vital and continuing. So what makes the few people out in the fringes both of humanity and time that argue like this was some apocalyptic battle?

Once upon a time, slavery was legal, and noone questioned it Does that mean that it was right?

Theben:

quote: In this country and in this day, abortion is legal, and tolerated by the majority of citizens. Killing a person, child or elderly, is illegal, and not tolerated. That's it. Case closed.

Ethics, on the other hand, aren't about conformity, but about reason. And if you think that morality is fluid, etc. why do you think slavery should've been abolished? why you think that segregation should've been abolished? most people supported it.

	07-11-2003 15:05									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Ethics, on the other hand, aren't about conformity, but about reason.

Nope, that's called logic.

Ethics is about what one ought and ought not do. Which means ethics itself has to ground on something.

	07-11-2003 15:13									#50
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precisely.

	07-11-2003 15:13									#51
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I think the real problem is about how to define 'life' and how to define 'human' and how to define 'sentient' or 'conscious'.

Imagine someone who 'survives' a near fatal car crash, kept alive only by machines, but is brain dead. No thought going on at all. I think most people would be happy with shutting off life support - 'aborting' him.

Now I don't think a newly fertilised egg is any more 'life' than the guy on life support, so I don't have a problem with the destruction of fertilsed eggs. But clearly a newborn baby is, so somewhere between conception and bith the child passes a barrier which defines it as a live human being. The abortion arguments are all about where that barrier is.

Now we define the guy on life support as 'alive' if he has significant brain activity. I don't see anything wrong with this definition - if the fetus has no significant brain activity then it is not aware and not conscious.

So my opinion is that abortion is OK (but should not be encouraged) until the fetus has significant brain activity. Does anyone know when this is? (Pretty early I would think.)

	07-11-2003 15:34									#52
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Elok:

quote: With that said, I'd like to branch out my earlier argument, that the constitutional right to abortion simply does not exist. Abortion is never mentioned in the constitution or any of the amendments, nor are there any references to any subject even vaguely related to it or which can be construed by a reasonable person to include abortion. The Supreme Court's Roe v. Wade decision is ostensibly valid because of the principle of judicial review, which allows them to declare laws unconstitutional, i.e. that said laws VIOLATE THE CONSTITUTION ITSELF. With no actual constitutional backing, RvW is no more worthy of recognition than a statement by the CIA approving a new drug for human use. RvW excersized powers that the SCOTUS never had, and is therefore in my opinion invalid.

I don't understand this line of argument.

"With that said, I'd like to branch out my earlier argument, that the constitutional right to pizza simply does not exist. Pizza is never mentioned in the constitution or any of the amendments, nor are there any references to any subject even vaguely related to it or which can be construed by a reasonable person to include pizza. The Supreme Court's Roe v. Wade decision is ostensibly valid because of the principle of judicial review, which allows them to declare laws unconstitutional, i.e. that said laws VIOLATE THE CONSTITUTION ITSELF. With no actual constitutional backing, RvW is no more worthy of recognition than a statement by the CIA approving a new food for human use. RvW excersized powers that the SCOTUS never had, and is therefore in my opinion invalid."

If pizza is legal, then constitutionally why shouldn't abortion be?

quote: Secondly, "it's the woman's body." Except it isn't, technically. The fetus is genetically distinct from the woman and biologically predisposed to become an independent human being over time. Barring miscarriage, which is the exception not the rule, the fetus will become an infant, which will in turn keep growing until it dies one way or another as a child, adolescent, etc. The fetus is a foreign body within the woman; however, it is distinct and given time will become a man or woman. Note that the fetal form of a human being and the adult form are inarguably the exact same lifeform at different stages of development. It's simple birds and bees. It is the immature form of a lifeform, "just a clump of cells" that will become an infant.

Actually, when people use the phrase "it's the woman's body", they're usually referring to the uterus and similar paraphernalia. These ARE, unquestionably, part of the woman's body. She owns them, absolutely, and it can be argued that SHE has the right to decide what to do with them.

quote: I would argue that an unwanted child is analogous to an unwanted houseguest from a legal perspective. It may cause immense inconvenience, but until it endangers your own life you are not within your rights to kill it. Or shouldn't be, anyway.

Without resolving the "personhood of the fetus" issue, you can just as easily argue that the fetus is like unsolicited junk mail. People who throw junk mail into the fireplace shouldn't be convicted of murder.

quote: Just as a final reminder, I don't want to hear about back-alley abortions. This discussion is of the principle of the act itself.

Unfortunately, this is the primary reason why abortion was legalized in the first place.

	07-11-2003 15:44									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed i still think a foetus qualifies as a parasite. whether wanted or not, because it is a parasite, would not the host choose to deal with it in the ways necessary?

The same could be said for you, or for me or for any human alive. Many consume resources but do not give anything back. Should we start elminating people based on this assumption or is there a point that you feel its wrong to take care of those people who, for a lack of a better term, are worthless.

We have an amazing ability to justify things when it goes against our convience. The definition of what is human and what is not has been used repeatedly through out history to make things more convient for the majority. Native Americans, Jews, Blacks have all been explained away for the convience of others.

	07-11-2003 16:16									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh So my opinion is that abortion is OK (but should not be encouraged) until the fetus has significant brain activity. Does anyone know when this is? (Pretty early I would think.)

Of course, even once the fetus has some brain activity, there is a question of whether it should be treated differently than a comperable animal at that stage of sophistication.

Reform Judaism teaches the following. During confirmation class the Rabbi at our temple advised us that according to his interpretation of passages in the Kabballa, abortions are not objectionable from a religious perspective. The reason for this is when several Rabbis are providing commentary on whether a baby being born can be killed in order to save a mothers life, one Rabbi argues that it is permissible because the baby has no soul until it draws its first breath. A logical conclusion that can be reached once this is established, is since the key distinction between animals and humans is the posession of a soul, there is therefore no difference between fetuses and animals.

Here's some additional material co-authored by my Rabbi on the abortion issue using traditional Jewish perspectives to draw the following conclusion:

quote: For Judaism, the evidence in matters of abortion, then, is reasonably clear. The legal and rabbinic teachings tend to depict the fetus as simply part of a woman's body...The fetus is not a person, it has no rights.

http://www.rcrc.org/pdf/jewish%20perspectives.pdf

	07-11-2003 17:33									#55
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quote: The same could be said for you, or for me or for any human alive. Many consume resources but do not give anything back. Should we start elminating people based on this assumption or is there a point that you feel its wrong to take care of those people who, for a lack of a better term, are worthless.

well, since i'm not actively sucking bodily fluids, nutrients, and antibodies directly from someone else, i'm not a biological parasite.

that said...

look, i'm against abortion. i think it's a heinous thing... but the problem lies in the fact that we still have conflicting definitions of what consists of a sentient human and what does not, and until that's resolved, we're going to have a ***** of a time trying to decide whether abortion is "moral" or not.

quote: We have an amazing ability to justify things when it goes against our convience. The definition of what is human and what is not has been used repeatedly through out history to make things more convient for the majority. Native Americans, Jews, Blacks have all been explained away for the convience of others.

i have to agree. non-fetuses are the majority. of course, blacks, native americans, and other minorities did not directly siphon of precious bodily fluids from their hosts...

do you ever wonder why i only drink grain alcohol and rainwater, mandrake?

	07-11-2003 17:38									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Elok Which begs the question: Who wants you, anyway?

Plenty of people actually.

But the point is that if I hadn't actually been wanted in the first place, I wouldn't have known anything about it...

	07-11-2003 17:42									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh I think the real problem is about how to define 'life' and how to define 'human' and how to define 'sentient' or 'conscious'. Imagine someone who 'survives' a near fatal car crash, kept alive only by machines, but is brain dead. No thought going on at all. I think most people would be happy with shutting off life support - 'aborting' him. Now I don't think a newly fertilised egg is any more 'life' than the guy on life support, so I don't have a problem with the destruction of fertilsed eggs. But clearly a newborn baby is, so somewhere between conception and bith the child passes a barrier which defines it as a live human being. The abortion arguments are all about where that barrier is. Now we define the guy on life support as 'alive' if he has significant brain activity. I don't see anything wrong with this definition - if the fetus has no significant brain activity then it is not aware and not conscious. So my opinion is that abortion is OK (but should not be encouraged) until the fetus has significant brain activity. Does anyone know when this is? (Pretty early I would think.)

I endorse this thinking. It is very close to my own, see above.

Rogan, I think the dividing line is at 13-14 weeks.

After that period of time, the viable human has rights that cannot be removed, but must be "balanced" against the rights of the mother to life and health. If the pregnancy has no hope but would only kill the mother, it should be terminated. If the mother could potentially die or suffer some serious health risks, she has the superior right.

Then there is the issue of deformity, genetic disease and the like. Terminating a pregnancy under these circumstances should also be permitted if not required. Such a birth can catastrophically affect families or society in addition to the pain and suffering to the infant itself. The new statute contains no exception for this category and is for that reason "unadvisable."

	08-11-2003 00:45									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless Elok: I don't understand this line of argument. If pizza is legal, then constitutionally why shouldn't abortion be?

The Supreme Court argues that abortion is a constitutional right. I am only arguing that this is not so, that the constitution says nothing about abortion and therefore the SC has no authority to say anything about it, good or bad. If you want to use your analogy, the SC cannot claim a "constitutional right to pizza."

quote: Actually, when people use the phrase "it's the woman's body", they're usually referring to the uterus and similar paraphernalia. These ARE, unquestionably, part of the woman's body. She owns them, absolutely, and it can be argued that SHE has the right to decide what to do with them.

Except insofar as doing something with them will infringe upon the rights or well-being of others, yes. However, the fetus is plainly a distinct if dependent entity from the woman carrying it. To argue that it isn't old enough to have rights now, but in a few months it will, is a weird sort of temporal discrimination IMO.

quote: Without resolving the "personhood of the fetus" issue, you can just as easily argue that the fetus is like unsolicited junk mail. People who throw junk mail into the fireplace shouldn't be convicted of murder. Unfortunately, this is the primary reason why abortion was legalized in the first place.

However, said issue isn't resolved, only brushed off without a good reason nine times out of ten. To be fair, the pro-life side tends to use some crappy arguments about how it can wiggle its toes at so many weeks, which tacitly approves of our current system of sliding-scale mercy.

Theben: are you saying that we should determine policy by the current national mood? What we think right now is by nature correct? It sounds highly democratic but it presents the very real danger that, if our society is going in the wrong direction, we are going to become more and more assured of our own magnificence rather than try to solve the problem. I don't see what you're getting at. Like I said, Roe v. Wade is based in BS and shouldn't matter. The argument isn't simply moral or religious any more than a question of whether black people can be enslaved is just religious opinion. It's a question of whether a certain group of people (or things-that-will-become-people, whatever) is entitled to protection under the law.

GePap: it is Nietzsche-babble because it ignores an actual issue by making broad psychoanalytical generalizations about the human race, and in the process implies that the question asked is beneath you. I didn't ask you about the development of society and why we stupid Americans are narrow-minded. If we are wrong and it is better to think of things in terms of demographic consequences like the wise people in India, please explain why. If, on the other hand, you're doing one of those "there is no absolute truth" things, why are you even arguing?

	08-11-2003 01:04									#59
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quote: IN India and China there are huge numbers of abortions by couples trying to get boys and not girls, far more abortions than are preformed in the US, and the political debate that rages is not about the "right to life" of fetuses, but of the possible dire demographic consequences. Yet last time I looked people in India and China are sentient human beings...and yet somewhow they don't get consumed by this moralizing here in the US and a few other spots.

It's hard to argue for a right to life in a society that does not even protect born people let alone the unborn. You need human rights to argue for the right to life, so if you believe we ought to take the direction of India or China, then go ahead.

	08-11-2003 01:05									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Elok Theben: are you saying that we should determine policy by the current national mood? What we think right now is by nature correct? It sounds highly democratic but it presents the very real danger that, if our society is going in the wrong direction, we are going to become more and more assured of our own magnificence rather than try to solve the problem. I don't see what you're getting at. Like I said, Roe v. Wade is based in BS and shouldn't matter. The argument isn't simply moral or religious any more than a question of whether black people can be enslaved is just religious opinion. It's a question of whether a certain group of people (or things-that-will-become-people, whatever) is entitled to protection under the law.

I'm not saying that's what we should do. I'm saying that IS what we do. Slaverly used to be moral, and now it is not. It could very well be again, given the right conditions. And I'd rather have these things decided by a democratic process than by a ruling minority (or singularity), since the few can make sweeping and irresponsible alterations to society.
What do you think the Bill of Rights is, other than the result of the national mood of the day?