10-11-2003 00:43									#121
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker RvW said that any law prohibiting abortions was unconstitutional. Elok's point is that this is absurd - it isn't mentioned in the Consitution.

No, but there is an implied right to privacy in the Constitution. No unwarranted searches and seizures withut probable cause. No one may be forced to testify against themselves. Spouses cannot testify against one another in criminal trial. The state may not interfere with a defendent and his legal counsel. Again and again, the Constitution says that the state may not simply intrude into the affairs of citizens. Obviously, there is an implied right to privacy. And that's what RvW was about.

	10-11-2003 00:48									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi St. Swithin: Not potentially living. If the unborn were already dead, why would one need an abortion? You are either dead or living. Good point. What is the unborn? If the unborn is a person, then she too has the right to do what she would with her body. I'm cheap. Why should I have to pay for a child for the rest of my life? There is no reason to assume that an abortion has no benefits for men. It's a way to have sex without ever having to worry about a baby, and best of all, you don't have to have the surgery or wear a condom. What could be better for men? It takes two to make a baby. This is why the man has a responsibility to take care of his lover, and her child. So if you say the man ought not to have any say, why should he stick around? Hey, no one forced you to have sex. One of the consequences of sex is pregnancy. Therefore your analogy is moot. No one is forcing a woman to get pregnant. Why work for a better world if you've already given up? Why bother with taking care of these kids, when the irresponsible woman should have had an abortion? Abortion is corrosive to care for children, it is only when it is no longer an option that people will start to seriously consider funding alternatives such as adoption.

My biggest problem with abortion is that there is any issue whatsoever. It should be easily accessible, stigma-free, and solely the woman's decision, yet there are still people who oppose this procedure as if it were a personal affront, and then offer no other solutions other than to argue their moral standpoint (which is an ultimately useless waste of time).

The only person who should be making the decision about having/not having an abortion is the pregnant woman herself. The man has no obligation to stick around - why would he? I agree - he's off the hook - it's just the way it works.

If there is a discussion about abortion, it ought to be among women and health care professionals, and it ought to be about how to help those who may have been through it or may be considering it, and how to best serve their needs.

As far as living or dead, I feel that if an entity can't survive on its own without the aid of a physiological connexion to another entity, it ain't alive yet. It's a parasite, or symbiote or whatever nice PC term you want to use.

To paraphrase Max Cannon:
I once had a hamster and she gave birth to five little babies. The next day, I noticed she'd eaten two of her little babies. What the heck - had a couple myself.

	10-11-2003 01:28									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I have never seen any cites to that effect. But if that's the case, I completely agree.

	10-11-2003 01:33									#124
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quote: No, but there is an implied right to privacy in the Constitution. No unwarranted searches and seizures withut probable cause. No one may be forced to testify against themselves. Spouses cannot testify against one another in criminal trial. The state may not interfere with a defendent and his legal counsel. Again and again, the Constitution says that the state may not simply intrude into the affairs of citizens. Obviously, there is an implied right to privacy. And that's what RvW was about.

You have a right to privacy, but a) this doesn't apply if the fetus is a person, because then it isn't private, and b) this probably doesn't apply even if the fetus ISN'T a person, because I don't really see how it's any more of an invasion of privacy than, say, what the FDA does. Btw, I just realized, couldn't they regulate it under "interstate commerce" anyways?

DISCLAIMER: I am not saying that the fetus is a person. I have no opinion on abortion - don't flame me about it. I just think RvW was an awful decision because it is a legislative, not constitutional, issue.

	10-11-2003 01:34									#125
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara No, but there is an implied right to privacy in the Constitution. No unwarranted searches and seizures withut probable cause. No one may be forced to testify against themselves. Spouses cannot testify against one another in criminal trial. The state may not interfere with a defendent and his legal counsel. Again and again, the Constitution says that the state may not simply intrude into the affairs of citizens. Obviously, there is an implied right to privacy. And that's what RvW was about.

"Without probable cause" being the three key words here. If one citizen is whacking another, it's entirely the government's business no matter where it happens. Or "future citizen."

I've still never heard a good explanation of why it matters that the kid hasn't matured to a certain point. I repeat, it is unarguably the same lifeform at a different stage of development. There's no magic fetus fairy that swaps it for a baby the second before it hits the birth canal. Fetus=immature human being. Cold fact.

	10-11-2003 01:35									#126
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quote: There's no magic fetus fairy

Don't tell the children!

	10-11-2003 01:36									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I did not make such a judgement. If you can indeed show that fetuses are sentient, they will be considered as persons.

there is no real difference between the newly born and the later fetus. The head begins to grow after birth, and it does rapidly so, but in the first week or so, there is no difference.

	10-11-2003 08:11									#128
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quote: I feel that if an entity can't survive on its own without the aid of a physiological connexion to another entity, it ain't alive yet. It's a parasite, or symbiote or whatever nice PC term you want to use.

St. Swithin:

Let's look up the definition of the word parasite, since I hear at least 6 or 7 shots fired using that word.

"Organism that lives on or in an organism of a different species and obtains nutrients from it ."(B79 - associated terms)"

http://212.187.155.84/wnv/Subdirect.../p/parasite.htm

Now, I ask if the unborn child is not human, than what is it? A dog, a cat or what? It must have some species. If the unborn child is human, it cannot be a parasite by virtue of being of the same species.

Secondly, what gives the woman the right to do what she wants with her own body? Isn't she just the chattel of the male and a part of his property? You dismiss moral concerns so blithely yet you fail to admit that all your arguments make similar moral assumptions.

	10-11-2003 08:18									#129
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Ned:

quote: You do seem to be recognizing that there are a balance of rights involved. This is progress.

Actually I deny a balance of rights even in the case of an ectopic pregnancy. Read what I said again.

quote: And, do not get me wrong. I think the probability of real harm to the mother must be more than a slight risk. We agree on that.

In one circumstance, an ectopic pregnancy. All others do not drive one to favour abortion over the other options.

quote: That should not be necessary.

It's not that complicated. Just list one health risk, an ectopic pregnancy, and ban all other abortions. Not difficult to formulate this policy.

	10-11-2003 08:32									#130
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Theben:

quote: We know 'cuz the law's on the books. And yes, despite what you think the majority does tolerate abortion, even if they don't like it.

Then I suggest you re-read the laws. The people did not vote on the law, but 1 justice ruled in favour of Roe. That's the whole point we have just been discussing, that the people need to have a say, and just letting the justices pontificate, will not represent the people.

quote: The constitution is not the limit of our freedoms. I hope you don't wish this was the case.

Bob'n'weave. If it is not in the constitution, than why should we permit abortions?

quote: Immigrant workers will serve.

But aren't we exporting abortion services around the world? If everyone has an abortion, that's it for all of us.

WRT to the tribune article, I ask again, how do you know whether the unborn child that you are giving a death sentence will or will not be a criminal? It's like the death penalty, without a trial, and without proof that a crime has been committed!

How many of these crimes cited by the Tribune deserve the death penalty?

	10-11-2003 08:42									#131
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quote: If you can indeed show that fetuses are sentient, they will be considered as persons.

UR:

First you need a better definition of sentient, then recognition of self in a mirror.

Secondly, even when one is not looking in a mirror, you are still sentient. It's like being a lawyer. You do not stop being a lawyer even when you are not currently functioning as a lawyer. The same is with sentience. The unborn child may not currently be sentient, but has the capacity to attain sentience, from the genetic code instructions obtained at conception.

	10-11-2003 17:40									#132
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you know, i think women would be a lot more receptive to the idea of not getting abortions if the man who impregnated her had to wear a chastity belt until she gave birth.

the misery and physical suffering, i think, would even out.

	10-11-2003 23:22									#133
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Q Cubed, are you suggesting that women and abortions during a second or third trimester in order to avoid "misery and physical suffering?"

	10-11-2003 23:54									#134
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I want to echo Ned's question.

	11-11-2003 02:31									#135
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pfft. you should know that comment was facetious and not serious...

	11-11-2003 04:23									#136
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Damn you boy! haven't you learned anything here in Poly! You disgrace the alma mater!
Off with your head!

	11-11-2003 06:10									#137
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well, since i haven't graduated, i can just say that it's because i haven't been properly educated as a third or fourth year.

	11-11-2003 07:10									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi "Organism that lives on or in an organism of a different species and obtains nutrients from it ."(B79 - associated terms)" http://212.187.155.84/wnv/Subdirect.../p/parasite.htm

I don't know what site your definition of 'parasite' comes from, but here's what Merriam-Webster's has:

Main Entry: par·a·site
Pronunciation: 'par-&-"sIt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, from Latin parasitus, from Greek parasitos, from para- + sitos grain, food
Date: 1539
1 : a person who exploits the hospitality of the rich and earns welcome by flattery
2 : an organism living in, with, or on another organism in parasitism
3 : something that resembles a biological parasite in dependence on something else for existence or support without making a useful or adequate return
- par·a·sit·ic /"par-&-'si-tik/ also par·a·sit·i·cal /-ti-k&l/ adjective
- par·a·sit·i·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb
synonyms PARASITE, SYCOPHANT, TOADY, LEECH, SPONGE mean a usually obsequious flatterer or self-seeker. PARASITE applies to one who clings to a person of wealth, power, or influence or is useless to society <a jet-setter with an entourage of parasites>. SYCOPHANT adds to this a strong suggestion of fawning, flattery, or adulation <a powerful prince surrounded by sycophants>. TOADY emphasizes the servility and snobbery of the self-seeker <cultivated leaders of society and became their toady>. LEECH stresses persistence in clinging to or bleeding another for one's own advantage <a leech living off his family and friends>. SPONGE stresses the parasitic laziness, dependence, and opportunism of the cadger <a shiftless sponge, always looking for a handout>.

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Now, I ask if the unborn child is not human, than what is it? A dog, a cat or what? It must have some species. If the unborn child is human, it cannot be a parasite by virtue of being of the same species.

Only by the rigidly narrow definition you provided does species become involved. I would argue strongly that species has nothing to do with it.

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Secondly, what gives the woman the right to do what she wants with her own body? Isn't she just the chattel of the male and a part of his property? You dismiss moral concerns so blithely yet you fail to admit that all your arguments make similar moral assumptions.

I can't believe you wrote this. I still can't stop laughing!!

Edit: fixed broken code

	11-11-2003 07:41									#139
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fetuses, zygotes, and anything that feeds off of your precious bodily fluids... they are parasites. after all, they do sap and impurify the essences of women by introducing different blood proteins and other such diabolical chemicals.

they're almost as bad as flouridation, ben. it's a vast plot to destroy our purity of essence.

i first became aware of this during the physical act of love...

	11-11-2003 08:25									#140
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quote: Only by the rigidly narrow definition you provided does species become involved. I would argue strongly that species has nothing to do with it.

Then we have to eliminate all the sponges in society, all those who are on welfare who do not contribute. The 'rigidly narrow' definition is the one used by biologists, and hence much less problematic than the wider definition.

quote: I can't believe you wrote this. I still can't stop laughing!!

Point's still there. We're all making moral assumptions, even you.

	11-11-2003 08:50									#141
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Point. But I'm still laughing.

	11-11-2003 11:29									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Then I suggest you re-read the laws. The people did not vote on the law, but 1 justice ruled in favour of Roe. That's the whole point we have just been discussing, that the people need to have a say, and just letting the justices pontificate, will not represent the people.

I never said the people voted on the law, what's your point? I said: 1)it IS the law, and 2)the majority of people tolerate it, as in a sufficient number of the eligible voters of the U.S. have not bickered loud enough for politicians to enact legislation to outlaw abortion. Clear enough for you?

quote: Bob'n'weave. If it is not in the constitution, than why should we permit abortions?

It's not in the constitution to allow individuals to own a house, or a cat, or a car. Or throw away trash. So you need to get rid of all these things ASAP, but without throwing them away. Good luck.

quote: But aren't we exporting abortion services around the world? If everyone has an abortion, that's it for all of us.

There's plenty of leftovers to continue the world population. Plus abortion didn't start in the U.S. or Canada. It's been around for thousands of years. So no exporting.

quote: WRT to the tribune article, I ask again, how do you know whether the unborn child that you are giving a death sentence will or will not be a criminal?

You'll have to read the article yourself since the researchers are the ones to answer that. I ain't paying money to find out.

	11-11-2003 11:51									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi First you need a better definition of sentient, then recognition of self in a mirror.

You can't be sentient unless you are self-aware, which means you recognise yourself in a mirror.

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Secondly, even when one is not looking in a mirror, you are still sentient. It's like being a lawyer. You do not stop being a lawyer even when you are not currently functioning as a lawyer. The same is with sentience. The unborn child may not currently be sentient, but has the capacity to attain sentience, from the genetic code instructions obtained at conception.

I am not sure whether you are confused or are confusing, but there are several issues here all mingled together.

1. I am not sentient because I look in a mirror. Looking in a mirror and recognising myself is a characteristic of sentience, not the other way around.

2. Being a lawyer is not an intrisic attribute. A lawyer can stop being one at any time.

3. A being is either sentient or not. Saying that it has the capacity is not an argument. If I use your logic, murder should be legal, because we will all die.