07-11-2003 23:00									#31
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I appreciate Togas' words, but frankly I think that he, like us, needs to simmer down and really think a bit about the situation.

-Arrian

	07-11-2003 23:24									#32
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Sure, but with RP not really having much left to lose, threatening to put a fork into Lego by inflicting WW on them doesn't sound such a bad idea to me - particulary if we can't issue a credible physical counter-threat to Lego ourselves.

I too have been thinking along the lines of retreating, licking our wounds and waiting for a future opportunity, while hoping that the remaining powers do some damage to themselves.

I just don't want to lie down quite yet and let those phuquers piss on us like this without exploring all options. The debate has been good so far, bring it on!

	07-11-2003 23:52									#33
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quote: I just don't want to lie down quite yet and let those phuquers piss on us

Somewhere along the line, they forgot that one shouldn't piss into the wind.

I'm looking at the options, Cort. And I don't like what I see.

-Arrian

	08-11-2003 00:18									#34
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A most disturbing development, but one that was expected.

Where do we go from here? I don't know.

I think we should go ahead with our plan and tell lego to **** off. Make them declare war on us, let them take the ww hit.


I do appreciate the main forum silence however.

	08-11-2003 00:24									#35
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The lying low option has a strong appeal, in a dashed-hopes type of way.

With Lego now overtaking us in mfg and going crazy-ape bananas on all graphs (though the power has levelled off this turn at last), and us allegedly neutered by the RNG for a unit-era and humiliated by defeat, we're not going to be seen as the danger-civ any more - at least by rational opponents if we can allow ourselves that assumption.

We trade and streamline in tech while Lego ploughs the furrow, block our coastline and wait, hoping for rubber and oil, and for the axis-of-evil to discover its contradictions.

It's just that we've got 50 Knights who never got to lay a finger on the bad guys ... :sob:

	08-11-2003 00:35									#36
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Despite all that has been said and recent develpments I still think we have alot to barter with, with GoW. Recenlty they were interested in an agreement with us where we'd even get to keep a section of bob. I don't know how differently they'd see things now or whether there would be an objection to a deal with GoW.

I would like to speak to GoW to see if it is still possible to find an agreement where we keep control of a portion of Bob and RP go to north stormia in exchange for peace.

What do you think?

	08-11-2003 00:37									#37
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Go for it

It's certainly worth a shot.

-Arrian

	08-11-2003 00:42									#38
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cool,

I'll go right to the top of the pile and contact Aggie.

	08-11-2003 00:51									#39
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Good Luck, OPD

	08-11-2003 00:56									#40
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Sure hope this works, cause the idea of hanging out on Stormia doesn't offer much appeal. I fear it will just mean we'll live to die another day.

	08-11-2003 01:00									#41
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cheers

message in the contact log.

I made it as discrete as possible

we'll just have to wait and see what he says, who knows what the reaction may be...

	08-11-2003 01:27									#42
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Guys, I kicked outta work to deal with this... I am home and available for the rest of the day.

Good job, OPD and Arrian!!

This is the direction I wanted us to go: We now have a credible threat against GoW, and are in a position to negotiate. I do not think that Lego's missive is all that meaningful (at this time).

We are ready to negotiate GoW's backstab of ND. Obviously, RP will have to relo to N. Stormia. Our diplo challenge will be to negotiate for a meaninful chunk of Bob, meaningful enough that we can (eventually) return RP to their rightful lands.

	08-11-2003 01:47									#43
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Catching up here...

quote: Originally posted by Tall Stranger Looking at the map, it seems that ND is a greater threat to us than GoW. It is therefore pointless to risk a war with Lego so that we can put the hurt on GoW.

That was exactly the point of the invasion, at the time when we still envisioned a 40-50 unit landing, instead of this limited one. By taking out the weaker partner, the battle would become easier, while if we fight the stronger ally it would remain a 2-1 battle for a lot longer.
I agree it has changed now that Lego wants to join, though.

[quoteIf the Yellowknife landing was intended to force GoW into a decision, it has not worked the way we intended. It appears they now have forced us to make the choice of war with all, or agreeing to their conditions for backstabbing ND. (Yes we could move our forces south, but unless a decisive victory is possible there, what’s the point?)[/quote]
Mhh... maybe. I'm not sure if GoW would want to backstab ND... we forced the issue for sure, although I don't know by how far.

Has anyone opened the save yet, and could comment whether we were attacked, and if any Legos are in sight? It's possible this is a threat because they know we could hurt them a lot before they can react (a small possibility, I know)

quote: c) if Lego declares war, we may have no choice but to assume that all three powers have decided to gang up on GS, meaning that all hope is lost and thus we may as well take you out with us.

I don't know about that... yes indeed, if 3 nations gang up on us, it looks grim, but we would probably be able to hold on for a very long time. All we need to do is build enough warriors and WCs, and block our coast, meanwhile putting all into economical development. Once we have enough cash and espoinage, we can steal our way back in the tech race... certainly if we can keep RP alive.

Is that fun to play the game like that? No way... but it remains winnable. The same applies for Lego, BTW, they don't need RRs to protect their coast, they only need enough forces.

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph That could work, considering that the bulk of their staff, who supports now a skirmish on foreign soil, would think twice if it came to a war at Legoland, to see some of their shiny cities razed.

I agree it might work, but... their cities don't appear to be so shiny. Lego is far from the builders they say they are, seeing their culture rating is rather low, considering they do not have any wars to fight (yet). That could be one thought nut to crack...

quote: Originally posted by Arrian I appreciate Togas' words, but frankly I think that he, like us, needs to simmer down and really think a bit about the situation.

Agree. If RP keeps a forever war going, it wouldn't do any good on the team spirit in 'poly... they can of course ask for a price when accepting peace. It would certainly be the opposite world, where a civ with 1 city left needs to be paid by 2 civs owning half the world in order for them to accept peace. This might be the price for Astro, and saltpeter we need...

That being said, I still would favor to kick some ass in the North, if it is at all possible... but it looks grim.

DeepO

	08-11-2003 03:17									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Therefore, I guess we might have to swallow our pride, back down, and plot Legoland's destruction. This may have to involve a RPodus to N. Stormia so we can get out of the GoW/ND war. Then we've gotta convince them to hit Legoland. Sigh. We're basically screwed at this point. Our attempt at securing enough land to become a major power (for the endgame) has failed. We've two options: 1) suck it up, get out of the war, and scheme and plot, awaiting an opportunity to deal ourselves back in; or 2) Blaze of Glory (more likely Gory). -Arrian

My I remind you that I am the warmonger formerly known as RPodos!!

I will NOT have a Spanish retreat named after me!!



(It totally threw me when I read that... "What? Why do I have to go N. Stormia? " )

	08-11-2003 03:31									#45
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I shot PMs to MZ and Un0 following up on our discussion of a possible chat last week.

	08-11-2003 04:08									#46
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Aggie read the message a few hours ago but no response

	08-11-2003 17:01									#47
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Reply in contact log. It look a little like he may just be trying to stall us.

Here's a draft response

quote: Aggie, It is a shame we are on opposite sides. However if we were to reach an agreement I'm sure you'd very much like working with the generals of GS. I find wars like this alot more fun when the odds are in more your favour and am sure you would too. First of all I do not want to talk about what we are doing, what we will do, what we could do or what you may do as I don't think that would be constructive. I believe we can make a good and fair agreement without threats or statements about how big millitaries are. All I will say is that the flow cannot and will not stop. So from what you say in your pm it is of vital importance that we come to some sort of agreement very quickly. And now for the good news!!! As you may be aware Lego have recently contacted us. Their message has given us the opportunity we needed to get close to convincing RP that northern estonia would be the best place for them. We believe it is possible that RP can agree to a RPodus and so an agreement between our 2 nations is possible. For the great benefit of us and the demise of everyone else. We would very much like to know what sort of deal you'd like to make with us, we'd like to split Bob between us and perhaps even make further plans... You may be aware that there are certain people within GS who are untrusting of GoW and I'm afraid we must insist that an agreement between us have an upfront payment from you to us. So that you don't turn around in 4 or 5 turns and say well actually no, now that we have x units we don't want the deal anymore. That "upfront payment" is of course technology. hope to hear from you soon

What do you think? I'd like to get a response sent soon.

	08-11-2003 17:44									#48
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Oh... didn't see this in time... OPD, see my reply in the GoW comments thread

DeepO

	08-11-2003 18:43									#49
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quote: Aggie, It is a shame we are on opposite sides. However if we were to reach an agreement I'm sure you'd very much like working with the generals of GS. I find wars like this alot more fun when the odds are in more your favour and am sure you would too. First of all I do not want to talk about what we are doing, what we will do, what we could do or what you may do as I don't think that would be constructive. I believe we can make a good and fair agreement without threats or statements about how big millitaries are. There is nothing to gain from such statements or hints, instead we would like to entice you to join us. You stated that you would like RP off you continent. We think it may be possible for this to happen. What else would you like from us? All I will say is that the flow cannot and will not stop. So from what you say in your pm it is of vital importance that we come to some sort of agreement very quickly. And now for the good news!!! As you may be aware Lego have recently contacted us. Their message has given us the opportunity we needed to get close to convincing RP that northern estonia would be the best place for them. We believe it is possible that RP can agree to a RPodus and so an agreement between our 2 nations is possible. For the great benefit of us and perhaps the demise of everyone else. We would very much like to know what sort of deal you'd like to make with us, we'd like to split Bob between us and perhaps even make further plans... You may be aware that there are certain people within GS who are untrusting of GoW and therfore we would like assurances that if we leave Bob alone and have us move forward together, that we do not have a risk of losing more than the position we currently have. Specifically as a token of good will we would ask that technologies be passed from you to us so that there can be no turning back. hope to hear from you soon

Ok have changed the last paragraph with what DeepO suggested. Looking on it now the message was very harsh especially the use of the word payment.

Have also changed the second paragraph to be a bit more friendly.

what do you guys think now?

	08-11-2003 18:56									#50
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OPD, looks good, with one final remark from my side: I would include a small paragraph that we would want to take a contract on ND, if possible. I know you imply it, but maybe better to make it more explicit... it would also make sense with the technologies paragraph.

Other then that: go right ahead, we need quick interaction, so even if it may not be perfect, we can't wait for days to let everyone comment, risking losing opportunities.


DeepO

	08-11-2003 19:11									#51
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ok have sent the message and edited it into the diplo log. Looking forward to the response