08-11-2003 08:18									#1
	Luxury Scarcity Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I'm still playing my first game - and playing with a spirit of experimentation rather than trying to win efficiently (RL has kept me from much gaming). I've just recently confirmed that I have maps of all available land, and unless my particular game is very flukey, I've come across what so far has to be one of the larger changes from PTW to C3C (though I hesitate to get too breathless with such little actual experience).

I selected "middle" map features on a random standard map with the standard 8 civs: Continents, 70%, temperate, 4 billion, etc. Using CTRL-SHFT-M to make sure I'm not missing any luxuries, I count as few as 3 instances of several luxuries, and the most widely available luxury has only 5 sources available. Specifically, of the eight available luxuries, 4 have 4 sources, 3 have 3 sources, and 1 has 5 sources. In PTW you could pretty much count on having 8 instances of all eight luxuries in an 8-player game. The consequences of the scarcity should be quite severe!

Did I draw a fluke or can others confirm a new approach to luxury availability?

Catt

	08-11-2003 08:42									#2
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I can't say at this time, but you could go to the editor and gen up a few maps and see what they have for a better feel.

	08-11-2003 08:47									#3
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Wow, luxury occurance scarcity would really work well if there was increased lux variety (tobacco, etc).

	08-11-2003 08:59									#4
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I can't say at this time, but you could go to the editor and gen up a few maps and see what they have for a better feel.

Great idea! I only bothered to generate 2 C3C maps and one PTW map, but the new luxusry scarcity would seem to be true. In both C3C maps, there were limited luxury sources; in the one PTW map, there were plentiful luxuries.

quote: Originally posted by Jaybe Wow, luxury occurance scarcity would really work well if there was increased lux variety (tobacco, etc).

There aren't actually any new luxuries -- tobacco, sugar, oasis, bananas, etc. are just bonus resources (like wheat, cattle, fish, etc.)

If my initial game is of any validity as an indicator of things to come, it is going to be a lot harder to achieve hordes of happy citizens (if only because certain luxuries never hit the market -- they are traded AI-AI and apparently renewed quite frequently).

Catt

	08-11-2003 09:23									#5
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The AI will not automatically renew trade deals any more, either. In prior versions, the AI always renogiated a different price, but the deal would always go through. Not now.

	08-11-2003 09:24									#6
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I'm playing my first game with Conquests also and from what little I've seen so far the luxuries do seem to be pretty scarce.

	08-11-2003 20:37									#7
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I recently spent a little time on generating maps with the latest version of the PtW editor and noticed that there need not be as many of each lux as there were civs, but it is possible that C3C has even fewer occurrences of luxuries again.

	08-11-2003 21:30									#8
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I'm thinking the decreased frequently of luxaries was to make possesion of them (and the new GWs that also make citizens happy) more important.

	08-11-2003 21:56									#9
	Re: Luxury Scarcity Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Catt In PTW you could pretty much count on having 8 instances of all eight luxuries in an 8-player game.

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt I recently spent a little time on generating maps with the latest version of the PtW editor and noticed that there need not be as many of each lux as there were civs, but it is possible that C3C has even fewer occurrences of luxuries again.

Yup - my first comment was an overstatement. Back in vanilla Civ it was common to see 8 instances of 8 luxuries. In PTW it was common to see an average of 6 instances of each of the 8 luxuries. Looks to me in C3C (just from the editor) that it will be common to see an average of 4 instances of each of the eight luxuries. (All on standard maps - haven't looked at others).

I'm not sure how it will play out, but to me this seems to have the potential to change the game in sometimes subtle but sometimes "in your face" ways.

Catt

	08-11-2003 22:04									#10
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Time to whip out the Colonies.

But I think I like the scarcity- forces your hand with luxuries, just like it should.

	09-11-2003 00:12									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe Wow, luxury occurance scarcity would really work well if there was increased lux variety (tobacco, etc).

Actually it really wouldn't if you think about it.

Consider;

Let us say we have 12 luxury resources. We have a standard map with 8 civs and 3 or 4 occurances of each resource.

By rights no civ will have all luxuries and all civs will have at least one.

If the vast benefits ( happiness wise ) were maintained making a grand total ( for a full house ) of 1+1+2+2+3+3+4+4+5+5+6+6= 42 happiness per turn.

The larger civs already have an insane advantage when it comes to science, production and influence in diplomacy. If there were even more luxuries - logically - larger civs would have them in the greatest quantities while the smaller civs would only have one or two and be unable to afford others. This means that there is an even greater slant late-game towards those who expand early and who engage in military conquest.

That isn't all that great. I'd prefer things the way they are to the alternative.

	09-11-2003 03:53									#12
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This will likely foster the development of KAIs as well... haves versus the havenots.

	09-11-2003 12:21									#13
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I concur with the scarcity of luxuries....based on seeing three random maps.

Also agree that's an improvement if it holds true.

	09-11-2003 19:38									#14
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Just a guess, but I think some Luxury instances were remove to make room for the new Bonus resources (Sugar, etc.) Whether or not this makes you "happy" is up to you.




Dominae

	16-12-2003 19:55									#15
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The lack of luxuries is getting me very angry, and I am on the verge of complaining to Firaxis about it.

I couldn't care less about sugar and tobacco - I want wine and ivory!!!!!!!

	16-12-2003 20:05									#16
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Jake,

You can increase the likelyhood of luxuries appearing in the editor.

Catt, I, too, have noticed a great lack of Lux. I played a small map w/ 4 civs total. It seemed that only 3 instances of any Lux would appear.

	16-12-2003 20:32									#17
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I'm in a game that started with 12 AI civs, maybe 5 max of each luxury. It did make things interesting though, I found myself launching a quick war just to get a second luxury resource. Then later on that came in handy, I was able to trade Dyes for Rubber and 3 other Luxs to a civ on the other major continent. There was only 3 other civs left then though, so the other Dye holder was at war with them.

That game was kinda wierd all around though, the Iroquois destroyed England/Spain/France/Babylon, and had one huge continent all to themselves. GPT bug helped them some, they had 75k in treasury.

	16-12-2003 22:51									#18
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quote: You can increase the likelyhood of luxuries appearing in the editor.

How?

Will that affect the whole game, or just a map created in the editor?

	16-12-2003 23:09									#19
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Just any map you create with the scenario you save it as from the editor.

	16-12-2003 23:29									#20
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quote: Originally posted by justjake73 How? Will that affect the whole game, or just a map created in the editor?

It will only affect maps created with that scenario, unless you mod the conquests.biq file--then it will affect all games (on your computer)

	17-12-2003 01:14									#21
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I wouldn't reccomend that, though, since loading a scenario you saved is so easy. Keeping the main biq ensures you always have a baseline scenario to refer to.

	17-12-2003 02:26									#22
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The scarcity in luxuries has worked nice in my games so far. I've had to play differently because of the change, which is refreshing.

	17-12-2003 02:57									#23
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Catt - I've noticed a distinct lack of luxuries also.

However, there seems to be an overabundance of tropical fruit (in jungle) and tobacco (on grassland). Every game so far, I've practically been falling over both of those and having a real scarcity of tradeable goods.

	17-12-2003 03:43									#24
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I don't know if it was a deliberate change in distribution, or just a function of having more resources (sugar, tobacco, tropical fruit) available for the random distribution by the map generator. IIRC, someone played with mods in PTW that dramtically increased or decreased luxury & strategic resources, and the amount of bonus resources varied inversely to the amount of luxuries / strategics.

In any event, someone named embryodead over at CFC did some hard legwork to decipher the math behind distribution -- the thread is here.

Catt

	17-12-2003 04:01									#25
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It doesn't make sense that Tobacco and Suger cannot be traded. I guess those towns want to smoke it all themselves/or sweeten their drinks with it or make pies. Perhaps those should make content faces.

Take a look at the Antibellum days of America. Tobacco and sugar were some of its main trading goods (ok sugar came from the Caribean islands, but is was part of the 'Triangle Trade'. Oh well, this isn't real life, just a darn close facsimile.

	17-12-2003 04:26									#26
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steven, you can change tobac and sugar to lux items if you want. They supposedly initially were luxuries, but were changed to bonus resources.

There will be consequences of course, to changing the dynamics so there are more than 8 lux, even if there are only 3-6 of them per 8 civs ....

	17-12-2003 04:31									#27
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What does happen if you have more than 8 lux?

	17-12-2003 04:41									#28
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker What does happen if you have more than 8 lux?

Either (1) no difference from 8 lux; (2) you get another 4 happies but don't know why; (3) it starts subtracting happies; or (4) the game crashes on you.

How should I know? I haven't tried it yet either!
I DOUBT that it shows on the lux display, but ....

	17-12-2003 11:11									#29
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker What does happen if you have more than 8 lux?

Instant orgasm, for me.

	17-12-2003 16:38									#30
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I love waging war over a incense burner