09-11-2003 09:03									#1
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Here is a PM from togas.

"Aggie,

I'm sure you know about the situation with GS and Legoland. We've heard quite a bit about it.

There is a chance that this will cause Gathering Storm to leave the war. I'm not sure how big of a chance, but it has left us debating within our forum what we should do if they decide to end the war.

As you know, most of my team has a very real, and very sincere hatred for GoW. I, myself, have to swallow such feelings to try to do what is best for my nation and I know that writing this message will earn me a bit of ire, but I do believe that you are, by far, the most reasonable and goodnatured leader that GoW has had. I therefore hope that something good may come of all this.

If GS leaves the war, we have two options:

1) Peace
2) Continued and eternal war and a state of WW from whatever isolated city GS gifts us if we are ever wiped out on Bob.

I don't know what you and ND had in mind when you started the war, but I'm sure that the current situation wasn't in the cards. It's not ideal. I'm not sure how you guys plan to split the land they've taken, but I will ask this question:

IF we agreed to a peace treaty and a ceasefire, would you agree to give us a section of land on the continent to live in peace? We would be content going back to our old role as merchants and traders -- we have never been warriors or conquerers, but I do believe we have fought well and admirably against your overwelming forces, and I hope that there is some respect for the great pride and spirit we have shown.

Spain has earned a right to live. We have done far better than Vox in their war, and we deserve to remain in this game.

We would be willing to agree to some terms to ensure your safety, but we would not be willing to become the slaves of GoW or ND. We also are not willing under any circumstances to leave Bob. We already have GS's promise to gift us cities if we fall, so survival is not really an issue. We will survive regardless of peace or war.

If you would like to talk, you know where to find me.
"

	09-11-2003 09:28									#2
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Here is the brief exchange with Togas later. My suggestion was based on the old possible agreement that we mentioned after Alamo fell.


hi togas, i haven't had a chance to talk to my team yet(usually MZ or pnazer is on), but my gut instinct is it is possible that we could have a deal where you kept the areas south of the pamploma mountains. that has iron and 3 luxs. This of course depends on ND allowing the war to end with you on bob.
Togas-- that may be a very realistic and fair option.
Aggiemowa-- to be honest that area would be corrupt beyond compare for either us or Nd so it makes sense
Togas--it will be difficult for me to convince my people to leave Pamplona.
Togas-- but I'll see what I can do. See if you can get ND to agree to something of the sort.

	09-11-2003 10:28									#3
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Aggie,

I think you need to unleash either me or one of the other "hotheads" onto the spite and mallice thread.

Togas hates me already, so I dont mind being considered the a$$hole of team GoW. They already think it.

It's time to drive a wedge between RP & GS.

We are getting discussion from GS regarding peace.
Now RP wants peace.
The Lego message must of gotten through.

I suggest something like this.....

quote: Abuse of the game mechanics yet again ! Never in any of my PBEMS have I ever met anyone so willing to stretch the game mechanics of what could of been a fair game. Two teams who have willingly taken part of warping units, have now indicated that they are willing to abuse the game mechanics yet again. It has been threatened that if GoW does not accept certain terms of peace, then Roleplay will maintain a perpeptual state of war against GoW in order to cripple our economy through war weariness. RP will be aided in this by GS gifting a city to RP on estonia that GoW cannot reach. Perpetual war to cause war weariness is IMO yet another abuse of the game mechanics by these two teams. I would request that the decent and honorable members of these two teams seek to take their leadership to task over these matters.

I dont mind if you and other team members jump in straight after me and claim that this is NOT the view of team GoW and that I acted alone ... blah blah blah.


1. Do you think this will be enough for GS (Who I expect does not know that Togas made this threat) to cut ties with RP.

Is it worth the possibility of angering both teams ? That they will strengthen their alliance ?

	09-11-2003 19:08									#4
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I think you should go for it.. if you're sure you dont mind being concidered "the a$$hole of team GoW". =)
It could be a hit in the belly on GS if we're lucky, and if not, Aggie may include something about diffrent opinions in the team, in his next PM..

	09-11-2003 21:58									#5
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Good point by both of ya'll. I like this threat, except I'd rather want assurances that the new cities in N. estonia won't be used for this purpose. Since Togas' threat was mentioned in a PM I am hesitant to put that publicly.

On the other hand you could say that you saw the new cities on N. Estonia and were wondering if they would dare to use such a horrible tactic.

To the issue of whether such a thread is a good idea is something that I ma unsure of. It is possible that this might undermine Togas's chance of getting his team to make peace. Later in the discussion(officially off the record) he was not sure his team would approve on a peacedeal. Apparently there have been several attempts to overthrow him by people wanting to go out in a blaze of glory.

I'd rather make peace with RP and then continue to prune GS forces. RP is already out of the running for all practical concerns and if we can so devestate GS that they lose much of their military, the game will be a three way contenst between us/ND/Lego.

So lets hold off on this until we get 2 items done.
1)ND idea(if they don't want RP on continent, then their is NO PEACE,and we can try to split GS/RP)
2)See if Togas can make his people agree. If he can't then lets "launch ALL PR MISSILES"

Aggie

	10-11-2003 03:18									#6
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OK - We can wait.

Timing is critical though... if GS want to exit the war, then they may appreciate us giving them the excuse they need to cut RP loose. They may know nothing of Togas saying that GS will help them with an eternal war.

It can either be me making wild acusations, or we can do it more formalised with Master Zen requesting an official vote to ban it.


On the city gifting from N Estonia...I thought this was to warp more catapults to RP ?

Last edited by Hot_Enamel on 10-11-2003 at 03:46

	10-11-2003 16:43									#7
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Chatting with Vondrack from Lego ...

This is supposed to be what they sent to GS

quote: the note said "you move your stack towards GoW or ND and we declare war on you, because you start threatening our long term interests. No ill will or grudges here, just long term Legoland interests. No further warning shall be issued."

GS did indeed move towards Yellowknife.
But because we can successfully defend it, they are not going to carry through with a declaration of war.

But it has totally surprised Vondrack...that this little note has caused so much trouble for RP & GS.
ie RP saying Lego is forcing GS to exit the war.

	10-11-2003 18:50									#8
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We are closing in on a very important turn in the game. Will we stick to our alliance with ND? if so we must keep the war with GS going, if we can manage to get lego in on it at last... then slow down the progressive in the south,
N Estonia shouldn't be impossible to invade... it would take Lego galleys a while to travel but if we could support them?
i dont know if this is a possible option but if it is i think it could be a good one..

a fake war ND would have many risks... if not both parts actually tried to get help from the other nations it would look suspious,
ofcourse you could drag out on the negioniations, but to what good?
a war would surly keep GS and Lego off eachothers necks?
and if they joined the war? either a 3 on 1 situation we really dont want.. or a 2 v 2 situation, where one of us betrays our ally? wont this look very odd? wont they suspect something?

get the war keep going, slow down progressive in the south by sending less reinforcements there and eventually let us focus on an invation of GS together with LEgo while ND slowly advances in the south..
then when GS is far too damaged we can have our fake war to keep Lego unsuspious until, while we meanwhile grow in strenght...

	10-11-2003 19:49									#9
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quote: N Estonia shouldn't be impossible to invade

I think it is currently

they have a unit wall, and we have 1 galley

	10-11-2003 20:35									#10
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Panzer, please check your PM"s. I need some worker/Prt Isolation feedback. Thanks
Aggie

	10-11-2003 22:13									#11
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Will RP agree to removal of GS?

What if we gave them the SE corner of Bob, where GS currently has it's stronghold? Would RP aid in such an effort? GS has publicly stated how they would see RP 'return to glory' Well, Lets give them a chance. Remove GS from Bob, gift it all back to RP, and stuff all your tile count bullsh*t.

If GS refuses...so be it, we'll TAKE it.

Just gut feeling.

	11-11-2003 11:04									#12
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Here is my suggestion of "RP reserve". I will let real diplomats like unortho and MZ make the details of peace. This is only a suggested map. Also the hatched grey areas on either side of the RP area are possible additions to the RP area to sweeten the pot.
Aggie

	11-11-2003 17:32									#13
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Aggie,

That comes close to the saltpeter resource.


My question is... do we really want to let RP live ?
I was willing to do it, if we were able to keep GS off Bob.

But now, with both teams wanting to discuss peace, I am not sure....


One of GS's greatest mistakes, was that they allowed Vox to escape to Lego. Vox has a deep hatred for GS, and are willing to spy and help us/anyone fight them.

Do we really want RP around to do the same to us ?
And if we have to let them live...do we really want them on the same continent ?

Let's not forget how RP & Togas really feels about us.
They will backstab us the first opportunity they get.

If we can, I would like to keep them (and GS) off Bob.
Preferably destroyed.

And if you doubt me... just read BigFree's sig in the ISDG forum the next time he posts.

Regs

	12-11-2003 01:45									#14
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HE, hopefull GS will attack us this turn and when they see Lego already here(on top of their on loses) they will back out of the war. If that happens we can simply wipe out RP. I just want to throw around plans so we have options. Basically here are 4 things i'd like to see.
1. Gs off our continent
2. Rp of our continent
3. Gs pruned
4. RP gone

Basically 1 is most important to me and 4 is least so I'm using this as I guide. Basically if wiping out rp leaves Gs here, I'd rather have RP alive and Gs gone from Bob.

It is still possible we'll get all of these though, the last is least likely since Gs will gift them cities on stormia. Of course we all know how such a"deal" worked for lux.

Aggie

	12-11-2003 02:52									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Aggie HE, hopefull GS will attack us this turn and when they see Lego already here(on top of their on loses) they will back out of the war. If that happens we can simply wipe out RP. I just want to throw around plans.....

100% agree.

Its a good idea, and a nice spot if we have to compromise.
But I would up the priority to wipe out RP.

	12-11-2003 18:36									#16
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UGL hardliners wonder where the grid on Aggie's screenshot is.........................

	12-11-2003 21:35									#17
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb UGL hardliners wonder where the grid on Aggie's screenshot is.........................

Actually the lack of the grid was a matter of convience for me. I only wanted to make 1 screen shot and since I was going to send this one to RP, I didn't want grids on the map. The reason being that I wanted to be able to fudge a little bit on the boundaries. This way the RP area looks slighltly larger than it really is in reality.

Sadly all this is probably in vain. Togas said he doesn't think anybody on his team will like this(including him). Personally I think he(and RP) is really screwing themselves. This deal was the best and most generous they are going to receive. They seemed willing to agree to the area south of the Pamploma mountains. why would thye agree to that and not this.......Unless they know where SP is located.

Aggie

	12-11-2003 22:49									#18
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Do we get the northern SP in our deal with ND?

How many active members does ND have now?

	13-11-2003 02:51									#19
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I am certain they know where the saltpeter is.

	13-11-2003 03:10									#20
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If RP wants saltpeter, they ain't going to get it. Hopefully GS attacks this turn and we finish them off remainder this turn and then go after RP. We all need to remember that on the second turn from Alamo we are in Gs's city and barcelona. So once GS attacks I've already decided that the course of action is to go right for the throat. With 32 Knights now showing they can't have enough for any kind of defesne if these are wiped out. I did mention to ND about us razing Alamo and rushing toward the coast. They were VERY unhappy with that idea.

Ghengis, I honestly am not sure about the answers to your questions. I do know that we are about 15 or so turns from us getting our own SP resource on Little Bob.
Aggie

	13-11-2003 03:38									#21
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I would respond to RP, that

"You couldn't guarantee that GoW membership would approve the plan of an RP Reservation on Bob anyway. The vote could go either way.

Any plan where RP keeps Pampalona would certainly be rejected.

So perhaps it’s best we just fight it out."

	13-11-2003 03:44									#22
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Why dont they like us disbanding The Alamo ?

Where is the ND force ?
They seem to be lagging behind us, in building their ansars.

Couldnt they rush a few musketmen, take our catapults, and defend the Alamo if we gifted it to them ?

They live right next to the war front.
Lego is covering their west. We are covering their North. They will have plenty of warning if their is an invasion from the east.

They are in a GA, and should be pouring units into the battle field.

	13-11-2003 04:44									#23
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the problem is gifting it to them. It deals with the turn order. We move out and send it to them, but then both GS and RP have oppertunity to move into it before ND gets their turn. We have to disband if we leave it.