10-11-2003 00:26									#1
	1842 MoW: German front, the road to Berlin. Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

We have made good progress on the German front, we are now only 2 city's away of taking out the German capital.

I propose the following plan for effectively taking out the German warmachine:

We take 1-2 turns to get a massive amount of attackers and take out Hamburg and Berlin on the same turn, loosing their cap with Col/GL and Sheakes and Hammburg with Bach should tone them down a bit

We only need 6 engineers to build the 2 needed railroads but I would suggest we take about 10-15 to make any further RR or instant ofrts if needed.

On the turn we take their cap they wont have a palace so bribing will be a lot cheaper. I would like to bribe Cunaxa and any possible small city's NW of Hamburg on that turn.
(As we dont know yet what lies ahead and our money situation it seems wise to leave this up to the discretion of the President )

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	10-11-2003 01:45									#2
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If we follow this great plan, Germany is going to be history very soon.

Yes, concentrate our forces on Germany, forget the Greeks for now.

	10-11-2003 04:18									#3
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All bribery should wait until we capture Berlin. That small city costs more than 2k gold, which I suspect we can put to better use building up our military forces.

We won't be needing insta-forts, if we can build a railroad right up to their city on the same turn and give them the classic Imperium initiation greeting.

What we will be needing are diplomats to take out the city walls of Hamburg, given that the city is on a river. So we need to take this into consideration before launching an attack. It will likely take - 8 or 9 diplomats to knock down the wall, given the number of improvements in Hamburg.

	10-11-2003 04:25									#4
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Hamburg is not on a rivertile, just surrounded by rivers.

The extra engineers are ment for instaforts on the other side of Berlin once we capture it as to make sure there is no counterattack or bribing. Or if we have enough units left we can attack even further on the same turn.

	10-11-2003 10:55									#5
	Re: 1842 MoW: German front, the road to Berlin. Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by atawa We take 1-2 turns to get a massive amount of attackers and take out Hamburg and Berlin on the same turn, loosing their cap with Col/GL and Sheakes and Hammburg with Bach should tone them down a bit On the turn we take their cap they wont have a palace so bribing will be a lot cheaper.

:hmm: I am not certain this is right. I beleive that at the same time as we take their capital, they will move their capital to a new city (no delay in building the new palace...the miracle of AI ). As a result there will be no instant reduction in the cost of bribing cities, as they may be building a few palaces with 9000+ Gold.

	10-11-2003 12:02									#6
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Well then, we should send them the invitation to the party they will be hosting. We should ask for refreshments, and we'll supply the entertainment. No need to wait for the diplomats.

Sparrowhawk, you are right.

Still, they can only relocate a finite number of times, and once we get rolling it won't matter how quickly they move.

	11-11-2003 00:16									#7
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Off topic....
Reading this thread has put two songs in my head and not sure how quickly I will forget them

Anyone else know who Leonard Cohen is? He has a great song where one of the main lines is "First we take Manhatten, then we take Berlin" and considering we took New York a few turns back and are now working on Berlin, it seems appropriate.

The other song I am reminded of is from atawa's banana line in the poll "The great banana has told us to live in peace with our German friends" which reminds me of a Bob Dylan song (you may not know Leonard Cohen but I am hoping you know Dylan) titled "With God on our Side" in which Dylan gives an American History of war and says "we forgave the Germans, now they're our friends". It is among my favourite Dylan songs, and this poll brought it to mind. Thanks for that atawa.

/on topic
I favour attacking the Germans capital of Berlin, and when it moves, attacking the new capital of ______ and when it moves attacking the new capital of ______ (until there is no longer a capital), and then moving to bribe or attack all remaining German cities, by that point their funds (and their morale ) will be reduced enough that we can assimilate the remainder with whatever means necessary.

* Sparrowhawk City Planner (and music fan )

	11-11-2003 00:24									#8
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Leonard Cohen!

You can't be that much older than I.

I like him, and my dad likes him though I don't have a cd by him.

	11-11-2003 04:07									#9
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When a scorpion attacks a spider, it first removes the threats to itself from the spider. Take the Germans from the outside in (and if their Capital is there in the process fine), but just take them apart from the outside-inwards.

Pretend we are enjoying eating a pizza from the outside hard parts to the best inside parts and we will take the germans in that way! The best tasting will be at the center.

	11-11-2003 04:34									#10
	Increase the size of your Attachments

* Sparrowhawk thinks Cavebear eats pizza different then most people! (as I suspect most eat pizza in pieces, starting each piece with the centre, working towards the outside and continuing on with the next piece)

Regardless, is this proverbial pizza going to have Ham(burg), Salsa(burg) or some other toppings?

What kind of pizza do scorpions eat though?

	11-11-2003 05:33									#11
	Re: Re: 1842 MoW: German front, the road to Berlin. Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Sparrowhawk I beleive that at the same time as we take their capital, they will move their capital to a new city

I thought, from the FIRST Civ2DG, that this only happens when the AI has 1000 gold in it's treasury. Does Germany have this?

Moreover, what is the timing of this plan relative to the attacks on the Greeks? I think we should handle the Germans first so we can then turn our attention more fully to the more difficult Greece, so 1-2 turns sounds fine, as long as we are not spreading ourselves too thin with multiple major offensives simultaneously.

	11-11-2003 05:35									#12
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The Germans not only have 1000 gold, they have 8309 gold in the treasury at this point. While this would worry me usually, I think they will be "donating" a significant portion of it to our coffers very soon, so I am not concerned about the amount, just the number of times they will be able to move their capital. Is there a max does anyone know?

	11-11-2003 06:28									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Sparrowhawk * Sparrowhawk thinks Cavebear eats pizza different then most people! (as I suspect most eat pizza in pieces, starting each piece with the centre, working towards the outside and continuing on with the next piece) Regardless, is this proverbial pizza going to have Ham(burg), Salsa(burg) or some other toppings?

Law of Sensory Experience: When you are hungriest, anything tastes good. As you eat, the tstes sensation becomes slightly jaded. Therefore, maintain maximum enjoyment by eating the lesser sensory parts first and the best ones last.

There's a reason you eat dessert *after* the salad. LOL!

So let us take the edges of empires first and take the sweet cores as they collapse!

quote: What kind of pizza do scorpions eat though?

Spider (live) and double crickets, extra innards, and no anchovies.

	11-11-2003 08:57									#14
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Sparrowhawk:

My great war in the underdark actually pertains to your question.

I had one empire with roughly 10K gold, one of three massive empires finally starting to crumble when I took their capital for the first time. They switched 5 times, after each time I successively captured the capital only stopping when they had 1200 gold. After they failed to build a capital, I quickly bribed their remaining 5 cities.

	11-11-2003 09:00									#15
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Does anyone know the calculation on how much money we get for taking Berlin and or Hamburg?

This info would be very helpfull in further tactical planning