04-12-2003 19:35									#31
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Great recap

quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV The frustrating thing about this scenario is the lack of harbours and trade. It totally kills playing the English. The harbour in Hedeby was destroyed as collateral damage when I atacked with a berserk so I was reliant on a Burgundian port for any link with the other civs, and my Danish towns, so that made war with Burgundy and Germany problematic.

I've found that to be quite a problem as well. It could be argued, I guess, that the english army makes up for the lack of harbors, but...makes the game quite difficult, as any expansion has to have their own resources for a long time.

I find myself bogged down easily by unit support costs, especially against the AI on emperor. For some reason my initive usually runs out of steam before I can eliminate Germany. The AI garrisons their king cities quite well, and takes a lot of firepower.

fun conquest, frustrates me.

	04-12-2003 21:03									#32
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quote: Originally posted by jkelly There's some real weirdness with the relics. Very early in the game the German relic (Splinter?) inexplicably wound up sitting alone outside the border of a city I had taken from the Poles (they didn't last long).

That would mean the unit carrying the relic most likely attacked that city at one point and lost.

The French sneak attacked one of my cities when I was playing as Germany with their relic bearer and poof I had their relic sitting adjacent to my city.

I was trying to figure out why they were bringing me tribute in the form of relics..................

	04-12-2003 21:27									#33
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Once when playing as the English, I assaulted france early on (4th turn I think) and wound up with two relics, apparently they had captured the Burgundian as well, very nice of them, not that I bothered to send them to J-town. Actually what happened was in the above screenshots, a relic was in the city that just flipped to me, hand delivered.

	05-12-2003 02:56									#34
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There's a Burgundian relic too? D'oh, musta missed that!

	05-12-2003 13:40									#35
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you can read my above post about the English. That army easily makes up for it for the human player.

I immediately- I'm talking turn #2 (maybe 3) attacked the french with my army of swordmen. So it wasn't long before I had cities on the continent. And as I said I expanded all the way down to Italy. This was useful so I could build some galleys (took a while to research this) and move them to Jerusalim.

Yep Burgandy had a relic. This is why I had the advantage as the human player. I ignored all civs except for the relic ones. After I took the french relic and 2 cities left intact, I ignored them and hit Burgandy. I took many of their cities and Italian cities and then hit Germany. After that I didn't attack anyone, I waited until I had galleys and moved my units to the big J. I wasn't going to mess with the viking civs- not at that early stage of the game.

	05-12-2003 20:59									#36
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So when you destroy a civ by killing all their kings, does their relic die as well? Cos I never saw a relic in Burgundy when I was wiping them out...

	05-12-2003 23:24									#37
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A good fun scenario.

Played as Sweden and united all of the Vikings under my rule. And most of Germany. And England. And France.

Next time I'll try one of the Christian nations and try to return the religious bits and bobs back to Jerusalem.

	06-12-2003 13:44									#38
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I'm not sure if the relic gets destroyed, I suspect it does. In my games I always got the relic before I destroyed their last king.

although... I think when I did get burgandy's- it was in their last city (which had their last king). And I'm certain that city did get destroyed- I remember that. But the relic was still in the same square the city was. I had to move a unit over to pick it up.

	08-12-2003 03:25									#39
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I am most of the way through another try, this time as the Cordovans. I am a bit disappointed to discover that assassins can't stealth attack king units. You have to wipe out every unit the king is stacked with before you can attack it. I suppose it would have been too easy otherwise.

The other civs don't like assassins. The Franks bumped into one that I was using to explore their territory and went straight to war - no warnings, just a pop up saying they had declared war.

Research has gone a bit better this time. Perhaps because I am playing at monarch, perhaps because the arab civs can build libraries. So I reached the last era and only the Abbasids are much ahead on tech.

I took out the Castilians and have the Iberian peninsula all to myself but I'm not going to get a win at this rate.

	08-12-2003 03:33									#40
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In the Sengoku scenario at one time I was able to stealth attack a King unit with my King (who had stealth attack at the time). And it worked and I took their civ down.

But on another occasion I was unable to do so.

Really strange. maybe there are other factors at play here.

	08-12-2003 15:13									#41
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Re: Stealth Attack Targets

This is simply a setting for the stealth unit. The King in Sengoku is a possible target for the Ninja, while the (weak) kings in Middle Ages are not (btw, they are also immune to the Plague, and I think they won't be killed by Barbarians. Not really sure on the last one, but I've seen a Keshik SoD attacking until the King is redlined, and then for no apparent reason they didn't continue.)


Re: Cordova

Second hardest Civ IMHO; but if you manage to kill off France and a few additional Burgundian/ German cities, you'll reach the 30 000.

Re: Assassins

The AI doesn't hate them - unlike Hidden Nationality units -, the AI now doesn't see them, and incidentially bumbs into them. The human player gets a warning, but not the AI. Always cover your Assassins.

Since this is a bug, I hope it'll get fixed with the patch...

	08-12-2003 19:50									#42
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I played Sengoku and could never target King units with my own King. And one tribe didn't even have a king... or at least I couldn't find him and wiped out all his cities first

	08-12-2003 21:10									#43
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I have actually added a bit more in the bug thread about assassins. After the french went to war over bumping into one assassin a french worker ran into another one. There was a fight, the worker got kicked in the nuts several times and died. That seemed strange enough but then a succession of AI workers (3 or 4) came out of the adjacent city, ran into my assassin and got the same treatment. Mass suicide!

The game seems to have a real problem with invisible units.

	09-12-2003 13:59									#44
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I played this one again as the Norwegians on Monarch level. Still not much of a challenge. Looks like I'll have to bump it up to Sid level

But those bezerkers are strong, only a few times did they go down. But they do cost a lot, and I only start with 1 real city that can produce them. There are 2 other good cities, but you have to build barracks first. 2 other cities you start with are worthless because of corruption- and 1 of those goes to the Celts by cultural conversion.

So you don't have a high industrial capacity- though you can research something to help you out in that- but I didn't bother.

I wiped out the English first- I kept their cities, but they were rampant with corruption- the cities were essentually useless except maybe for army support. But I got the relic. And then I took 2 french cities- the relic was in Paris. Then I hit the Germans. I picked up a relic off a unit I destroyed- I thought this was their relic- but I think it may have been the burgandy relic the germans took from burgandy. Because later when I hit burgandy, I couldn't find their relic.

So I only turned 3 in, but still beat my old score where I turned 4 in.

Anyways, I would like to play goalkeeper next. I'd like to know how many problems the assassins have as well. But for a challenge I will try a game as burgandy- they seem like they would be the toughest of the relic civs.

	09-12-2003 15:46									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I'd like to know how many problems the assassins have as well.

If you are going to play a civ that builds assassins be careful about how you use them. If an AI unit bumps into one it will start a war. This limits their usefulness in covertly exploring other civs territory.

They are useful when a SoD moves in on you or if you are besieging a city as they can selectively pick off the enemy units with a high attack value.

If you can get them into place they could be useful to pillage enemy resources on the outbreak of war and you would not have had to have a ROP to get them into place so should not take a rep hit.

	09-12-2003 20:13									#46
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I just have C3C, and have tried the Middle Age scen with the Fatimid (which are the first choice on the list). I managed to create quite a large nation, spreading from Morocco to Egypt, captured Egypt from the Abassids (replaying history in a sense), but because of the giant spread I had quite some troubles with corruption, so I didn't get enough money to create large number of units. Nevertheless I managed to capture Jerusalem, Damascus and Baghdad, which destroyed the Abassids.

After that I slowly expanded in Africa, built the "Wall Street"-equivalent, which created some cash flow, whereafter I went on the Byzantins. Just in the last few turns I captured Constantinoples. I won with a VP victory, although I haven't seen any relic. I watched on the review how far the relics have gotten, but the closest was still before the Hungarians, however, there was certain activity with those. Picked up here and there...

I also got declared war on me by a French setller/spearman in South-Turkey, when they stumbled on my assassin which I sent to Constantinoples tho help me slain the kings...

Quite nice level, although I would have liked to defend Jerusalem against those christian infidels

Grtz, Rysz

	09-12-2003 20:58									#47
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I'm on my first crack at this one. Like you, Dissident, I chose England and immediately packed up the relic in an army and shipped it off in a galley. No problem there, except it shows how woeful my geographical knowledge is. I had to get out an atlas to see that I really could get the galley to Israel.

My question is: what do the kings and queens do? Just stand there looking pretty? I'm interested that you kept yours in their original homes; I was thinking as I fell asleep last night that I ought to move them to London and wall the city. (Don't know whether I can build walls, however.) Anyway, do the kings/queens do anything?

Thanks for your help.

	09-12-2003 21:03									#48
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What is the goal for Arabs in this one? Just to win by culture?

	09-12-2003 21:19									#49
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MyOlde - Lose all 3 kings and you're out, that's why it's called Regicide. Best to keep them separate and protected (although the AI is only likely to kill them in the process of trying to wipe out your civ).

bfg - Any civ can get the 10,000 VP for returning a relic to Jerusalem so capturing them is desirable, otherwise it is points for killing units and capturing cities. (If you are thinking of our PBEM go pick on someone else, I have enough problems right now - and you probably will soon)

	09-12-2003 21:26									#50
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV (If you are thinking of our PBEM go pick on someone else, I have enough problems right now - and you probably will soon)

Oh, it was on my mind before we started.

Are you the one having difficulties with the Danes?

	09-12-2003 21:35									#51
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Are you the one having difficulties with the Danes?

For now. But it isn't smart to pick on another human player when you can't finish them off. The MP version is significantly different from the SP with fewer civs and some different starting set ups.

	09-12-2003 21:37									#52
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Cordovans just want peaceful coexistence, Cerberus....

	09-12-2003 21:38									#53
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Yes, I'm irritated that the Holy Relic that the Burgundians normally start with isn't in the game since they were one of the civs eliminated.

	09-12-2003 22:00									#54
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I just learned how tough it is to win Jerusalem. My original English army failed. Needs more, much more, than one army.

So...might as well load up with a few relics before trudging off to Jerusalem.

	10-12-2003 03:14									#55
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quote: Originally posted by MyOlde I just learned how tough it is to win Jerusalem. My original English army failed. Needs more, much more, than one army.

When I played as the Swedes it took 3 3x berserk armies plus 10 more berserks (of which I lost 8) to take Jerusalem. The Abbasids had Ansars and Assassins. When you go on crusade you really have to mean it.

	10-12-2003 10:01									#56
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in my latest monarch game I had 2 armies of beserkers (actually 1 of those armies I accidently put a swordsmen in it ). and a couple stray beserkers. it still took 3 or 4 turns to break in and demolish the city. Hey- I was Viking (norway)- I'm expected to raze the city

	10-12-2003 17:41									#57
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV When I played as the Swedes it took 3 3x berserk armies plus 10 more berserks (of which I lost 8) to take Jerusalem. The Abbasids had Ansars and Assassins. When you go on crusade you really have to mean it.

Yeah, when the AI is STILL holding Jerusalem, that's hard and for a good reason. BUT when it's previously razed, the byzantine did it in my game, well when my crusade reached the site it was defended only by 2 spearmen. A cakewalk. For an obelisk of this importance, they should have coded the AI to defend it seriously whatever the city is razed or not, OR no razing option possible when capturing Jerusalem ( the latter is probably simpler, other fans have already posted about that ).

	11-12-2003 01:54									#58
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I played as Denmark, and sent 32 berserkers, and only lost a few in taking the city, but I have had a lot problems with assassins. That hasn't been the hard part, it's been tough gaining traction in Europe, especially since Burgundy, my main enemy, has begun building Knights. They're quite pumped in this scenario, with a 5 attack, and I have no defensive units better than 2.