10-11-2003 20:01									#1
	Middle Ages Scenario Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I'm playing this one on Emperor level as Norweigians. Beginning with the first turn I emptied my cities of Berserks. So far it is still very early, but already I've caused considerable damage to my opponents. I've captured 3 English cities and destroyed another. I've also destroyed a German city and Frank city. Had an opportunity to see the new collateral damage feature already. I lost a Berserk attacking a city, however during the battle, the city barracks was destroyed.

Some questions:

Next to my capital there is an icon with a sword in it. What does the icon mean?

Will the AI's Christian civs try to take their holy relic to Jerusalem? If so, would it be a good strategy to send an offensive unit to Jerusalem to intercept these civs, take their relic from them, and cash it in for victory points myself?

	10-11-2003 20:05									#2
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quote: Originally posted by Feephi Next to my capital there is an icon with a sword in it. What does the icon mean?

That means there is a Barracks in the city.

	11-11-2003 03:47									#3
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I like this scenario the most so far I think.

Played a few misstarts, but this current game is interesting. I'm the franks, seems to be a great starting position.

monarch

warrred off and on with burgandy, drove them down to italy, one king and 3 cities left. then consolidated forces (Germans way too strong) and got the HRE, learned from previous games that this is huge, which gave me 2 techs and a ga. used ga for infra, town halls, monastaries, and manors,

then attacked Castille, took out easily. have the sun tzu like wonder, the domesday book, and in a handful of turns knights templar.

decided to remove cordova....took two cities and one king on first turn, spawned a leader, crusader army...

thats when the assassins came to play. I think there are about 5 of them on my border, and adjacent to my cities....not good. makes me nervous.

I like this scenario because you can research lots of things, but if you do you'll be way behind in the end. really wish I had aqueducts and spies, but that would have cost so much to get there...

fun scenario.

	11-11-2003 03:49									#4
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I have no idea about the relics, if the ai uses them or not. I sacked paris once and captured theirs, butit was fairly early in that game.

I've heard that you have to capture jerusalem, but that is easier said than done I would think, the sassanids are always strong in my games....

and can you not unload the relic? I don't think so unless I'm missing something.

	19-11-2003 14:36									#5
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel I have no idea about the relics, if the ai uses them or not. I sacked paris once and captured theirs, butit was fairly early in that game. I've heard that you have to capture jerusalem, but that is easier said than done I would think, the sassanids are always strong in my games.... and can you not unload the relic? I don't think so unless I'm missing something.

I played this as the Danes on Monarch and just owned the game. Was a lot of fun, actually. Amphibious assault is incredible. No coast was safe.

There's some real weirdness with the relics. Very early in the game the German relic (Splinter?) inexplicably wound up sitting alone outside the border of a city I had taken from the Poles (they didn't last long). A German spearmen walked slowly across the map to go pick it up. Confused, I sent out a Berserk, killled the spearmen and then had the relic underneath me, but couldn't move it. I realized that I had to pick it up to move it, and then discovered that I just made a decision that this particular Berserk would be holding that relic for the rest of the game. I really have no idea why the Germans delivered their relic to me.

I went on to take the English relic (Grail) from their capital when I conquered the British Isles, and had another Berserk pick up that one. I then loaded both relic-carrying Berserks into the same army, but they were no longer highlighted red and described as carrying the relic. I figured that loading the units into an army made the game lose track of what was in their pockets.

So then, later in the game, I went to take the French relic (Crown) from Jean D'Arc, where it was still in Paris. I "seized" it with another Berserk and made sure not to load that one into any army.

After a lot more fun and games, I launched a huge Longboat invasion fleet full of Berserk and Berserk armies, and hit Jerusalem. Probably one of the most massive invasions I have ever brought off in any civ game; Jerusalem was *packed* with units, including Assassins. I took the city, and received notice that all three relics arrived. That early army, part of the invasion force, still had its relics, they just didn't show up.

From all of this, I assume a few things. The AI doesn't know how to use Assassins. I should have had my weaker units in my invasion stack hit by them, but the AI reacted as it always does to stacks with tough armies guarding them, and didn't try to attack the stack with anything. The AI also doesn't apparantly understand relics; except for that weird German relic incident in the start, the relics just sat in their respective capitals. I'm not sure that the AI even knows how to pick them up, as that spearman wasn't given a chance to move. Finally, the AI is also not very good with Regicide; King units also just sat around their cities of origin, even when Viking hordes were right on top of them and they could have moved them to safety.

In spite of all this, it was a fun game, but I would have hoped that the AI would have been a bit better prepared for the realities of this Conquest.

	25-11-2003 15:22									#6
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Just finished this scenario. I'd like to add my comments.

Time: just over 7 hours.

I played as the English. One of the easier choices. As I said in another thread, I wanted to play the easier civs first to get a feel for the scenario. I've also been playing on easy difficulty levels. Regent this time. Although from the sounds of it, those Viking civs sound pretty cool. Can those ships end their turns in the sea? The English start off with 2 galleys (though they can't build them to start off with), and they start off with 1 army! They start off with a bad economy though- and I struggled with a bad economy the entire game- so my research rate was hampered.

Here's a quick review of what happened. As the human I had the advantage. I knew what other civs had the relics, so I concentrated on them. I completely ignored the celts, even though I would have preferred to have the entire British isles to myself. I hit France on like turn 2 . They had no idea what hit them. I didn't completely wipe them out though. I destroyed a couple of coastal cities and took Paris and one city directly south of it. Paris had the relic- I loaded it onto a swordsman. My relic was loaded onto my army full of 3 swordsmen. Having England start off with an army is very powerful (does anyone else start with an army?). I then declared peace with France- they did not attack me the rest of the game. I built a few cities in some empty spots and pepared for the Burgandy guys. I hit them up in the Belgium area first then went straight south into Northern Italy. I took Rome, but the relic wasn't there. It was in their last city I took (though I did have one of my recently conquered cities revert back to them)- in NE Italy. I loaded the third relic onto a new army I got when I got a military leader. I then moved some troops around and hit Germany from 2 directions- the south and from the East in their central region. I got their leaders and relic fairly fast. I loaded it onto a single swordsman who was an elite with an * who gave me my leader. I moved everyone down to Rome. I built the Holy Roman Empire sometime before defeating the germans.

I really couldn't take a land route down towards Constantinople without crossing borders. I knew I had to go by sea. No problem I say- I'm the english. Well my armies won't fit on curraghs. I could have won the game much earlier had I not loaded the relics onto the armies. I wanted to bring all 5 relics in at the same time. So I had to wait until I researched the seafaring tech in the 3rd age so I could build galleys from Rome and Naples. England starts with 2 galleys (despite not having the tech)- but I really couldn't move them down to the Med without being stuck in borders. Anyways I loaded up 5 galleys with my 2 armies carrying relics, 2 single swordsmen carrying relics, and also a few knights and a crusader (for namesake only- it just felt right bringing a crusader), and several swordsmen that I didn't have money to upgrade. The first time, I loaded up another swordsmen onto my armies to make 4 (building the Holy Roman Empire I think allows this- or another great wonder). But you can't fit the larger armies onto galley! Had to reload that- the game was getting slow with the entire map revealed, and the turns taking too long- I had to end the game soon. Trading world maps with every civ in the world yielded me much of the world map. I moved all 5 ships around Italy, near greece taking care to avoid ending my turn in other nation's borders, and then dumped all those units off. It was a total of 15 single units and 2 armies. It was only turn 130 and they didn't have any assassins- though it says they are invisible- how would I know if they had assassins?

In any case I was forced to declare war in between turns, but they did not launch any attacks at my stack. I took the city the first turn- though I only got one relic in. I didn't want the game to end until I got all 4 in. So I moved the rest in the next turn. Still no counter attack. Game over, massive score. The highest score I got so far in the first 4 scenarios.

The sassinids were getting fairly big, but they weren't very powerful. In fact, the byzantines were bigger. I had no interest in going through them by land to reach Jeruselim. Going by sea is much easier.

The ai does not know how to use relics. I'm not sure why. I know it knows how to use relics in the Intro scenario. The aztecs moved several sacrifices to the volcanos with no problem- in fact they were right on my ass in score for a while.

I think the problem here, unlike in the Intro scenario is there is no easy path to Jeruselim. As usual, the ai has no concept of using a navy. Granted, the 3 nations I was up against didn't start with any navy that I could see. Though one city did have a harbour in it- so maybe they did have one ship (burgandy). So there was no chance of them getting the relic there by sea. I didn't check the map closely- could you cross contantinople? I forgot to check. I don't think you can. So the ai didn't try to go by land. The AI has no concept of attacking and conquering cities on the "other" coast to establish a base of operations to send the relics by sea. That is far too complicated a concept for the ai.

So while a great concept, the relics don't work in this scenario. It works with the three sisters scenario, but not this one. The mediterranean sea provides too much challenge to European civs.

Other than that, the ai did a great land grab, and they were filling up the map, and a couple had more land area than me. Perhaps if they were aggressive and conquered quite a few cities, they might have got a domination victory- though I doubt this would happen at lower difficulty levels. There is no chance of the ai of eliminating all 16 opponents. The only other way to win is have a greater score at the end. So the game might be intersting if the human player plays as a non-relic civ and restricts himself from gaining victory points by using relics. And then sees if he can beat the ai in victory points at the end of the game (turn 204)

I do like the historical flair of the scenario, and has some great ideas, but the relics just don't work as well as they can work. IE- having the relic and the relic destination on the same landmass would have worked better.

Last edited by Dis on 25-11-2003 at 15:30

	25-11-2003 15:43									#7
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edit:

Okay I checked the map again. The continent is connected at contantinople- unlike in Fall of Rome scenario. And the continents are also connected in the caucasus region.

So the ai did have a land option to get the relics to Jeruselim. But it made no attempt to do so.

The only reason I can think of now is that perhaps it couldn't find a path because of the distance involved conbimed with the mis-mash of borders? Though at the start of the game (after viewing the replay) there are plenty of gaps to squeeze through.

In either case, I think the distance between the relic, and the relic deposit site complicate things for the ai. This is made worse by the number of opposing civs in between the ai and Jeruselim.

Like I said, the ai did not seem to have much problem in the three sisters scenario. The distance involved was short, and there were no opposing civs in between the ai and it's "goal"

Has anyone playing this scenario have an AI civ deposit a relic? I'd like to know.

The only way I can see them doing it is if they manage to get dominate and conquer all the cities leading up to Jeruselim. This would be by chance probably, as I doubt the AI is intelligent enough to conquer a line of cities leading up to their "goal".

	25-11-2003 22:59									#8
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A great conquest. I had a crack with the danes and noticed relic and king craziness as well. The franks attacked me with their relic carrying swordsman. He was the last of a string of units that had trekked through the german land, I bopped him and got a free relic.

I thought the no moving AI king thing was a bit strange at first, but it works thematically in so far as you take the major cities and the empire crumbles.

I didnt get all that far before I crossed over the the shogun conquest, but its certainly one Im coming back to.

	26-11-2003 01:51									#9
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I can kind of see keeping the kings in their first cities. They often turn out to be the biggest (though not always), and the best defended.

That's what I did with my Kings. I left them in London, and the 2 other English cities they start in.

And I used my relic carrying swordsman in attack as well! . I was much more careful not to get him killed though.

I'm happy that your relic was actually moving somewhere. But was he moving in the right direction? Probably not.

	26-11-2003 23:38									#10
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OK, this is my fifth scenario and the hardest so far for me on Monarch. I suspect my civ ( the Germans ) is a tough one to play : the French are strong military and in scientific research ( don't know how they manage to get 4-5 techs ahead of me with almost the same number of units, and we are all stuck with monarchy here ); and of course can't be fool enough to attack any viking civ ( berserks....) so the obvious goal while playing the Germans here is Burgundy. After several swordsmen skirmishes ( very close- the Aix-la- Chapelle battle was a very fun and epic battle-, I needed 4 turns and 20-25 swordsmen....) I managed to eradicate the burgundians, but even with those additional cities and space, can't have enough support for my military. So by turn 100-110, I'm still stucked with 9-1-0 ( 40-turn tech ) and STILL trying to get Feudalism ( Knights ) when the French and a couple of others have just reached the last age.

Heck, having wanted to compete with the AI by science I should have kept only 60 units ( instead of more than the hundred needed to expand at a reasonable rate ), which is not enough for my gameplay style to conquer well-defended AI cities in this scenario.

Still in progress for the days to come ( hefty week ), and as soon as I get ( I hope ) the knights, the target is France. I'll try also to bring my relic to the now destroyed Jerusalem.........I guess it's easier to play a viking civ....any ideas from someone having played the Germans ?

	27-11-2003 00:42									#11
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it's a very nice scenario, but definitely flawed.

I'm playing the Germans, on demi-god, and it has seriously been a tough fight. France has all the tech and most of the good wonders, though at least I've managed to whomp on Poland and Burgandy.

The AI doesn't seem to be able to deal w/ all the new stuff, though, which is a real pity. As well, no one at all has bothered to reasearch any of the Byzantine tech tree, or even the Arabic tech tree, so far. No markets, and I'm always completely broke.

	27-11-2003 03:33									#12
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the scenario, very deep and historically engaging, is probably intentionally ''flawed'' if we think mainly about the AI not researching its optional techs. The AI research requisite techs in its racial ladder, in order to reach the last age ASAP. Quite the contrary to the normal/epic game ( the AI always research there optional medieval techs before going industrial, etc......).

Now when people is complaining about the new units & features not used by the AI, then I agree, but if they teach it to use these properly ( in upcoming patches ), well this scenario can become overly tougher - if not too tough on medium levels, so they'll need to balance something else.

Btw, I've managed to capture 3 magyar cities and 1 from Poland. When making peace, I received Early Siegcraft and Map Making, so at last I can fully concentrate on Feudalism & Knights. It's just that Byzantines have 8000 VP ahead of me ( I'm third ). Is it worthwhile to bring my relic to the destroyed Jerusalem location??? Otherwise my escape plan should be conquer, conquer, conquer for the last 75 turns.

	01-12-2003 05:00									#13
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of course you should bring your relic in. The city doesn't matter- only the tower looking thingy marks the site as the "holy site" (VP location). You will get 10,000 VP points for that.

With Jeruselim destroyed, that task will be even easier. You won't have to attack Jeruselim and take it over. Though you may have to violate someone's borders if they are in the way. But you may not necessarily have to attack.

The hardest part in getting to Jeruselim is having a city on the Med sea and ships that can carry you there. I made the mistake of putting the relic on a 3 unit army- they wont' fit on curraghs. And a 4 unit army wont' fit on galleys . So be careful on that. But other than that, curraghs should be able to get you there.

As for the tech tree. Well me as the English did not bother with anything but the typical Western European techs. I researched war techs mostly.

	01-12-2003 06:30									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident of course you should bring your relic in. The city doesn't matter- only the tower looking thingy marks the site as the "holy site" (VP location). You will get 10,000 VP points for that. With Jeruselim destroyed, that task will be even easier. You won't have to attack Jeruselim and take it over. Though you may have to violate someone's borders if they are in the way. But you may not necessarily have to attack. The hardest part in getting to Jeruselim is having a city on the Med sea and ships that can carry you there. I made the mistake of putting the relic on a 3 unit army- they wont' fit on curraghs. And a 4 unit army wont' fit on galleys . So be careful on that. But other than that, curraghs should be able to get you there. As for the tech tree. Well me as the English did not bother with anything but the typical Western European techs. I researched war techs mostly.

Thx for the answer, and as I said in another thread ( raze cities ), I've experimented that when finishing the scenario which I won, just a few turns in time before an upcoming byzantine VP victory. Only 2 spearmen were defending the tile, so my 6-galleys crusade ( knights&crusaders ) would have been much useful only if the Abbassids have kept Jerusalem. Never thought to put the treasure bearer into an army, but I too tried to put a 4-unit army ( knights ) in a galley, of course without thinking at the moment about the additional unit count.

I had the time to research only 2 techs in the last age.
The Black Death is not as severe as I thought.

	01-12-2003 08:55									#15
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In case folks have missed out - the cost for "breaking in" to each new "culture" tech tree is very high comparatively to the other techs, which is one reason the AI avoids it. The idea is that each culture has a specific tech tree in addition to the "main line." Each tech tree has something unique to it, and also (usually) some redundancies as well. (Though one good trick for breaking in to them as a European is to use the "2 free techs" wonder to get past the ugly cost of the break-in techs, usually the Arab and Norse techs for me.)

There wouldn't be much point in having those special tech trees if the AI went after them all. Besides.... Vikings running around with Assassins using Arab Medicine? The Sassanids building the Holy Roman Church?



Honestly, my only complaint on this scenario is that if you want to play "goalie" as the Sassanids, the AI doesn't try anywhere NEAR hard enough to get its relics to Jerusalem.

	01-12-2003 20:37									#16
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Interesting thoughts on the scenario!

I'm currently playing as the Germans, I've taken most of the area that is modern-day Germany, and I've no complaints with the scenario so far... those Berserk units are nasty considering they're available to my neighbours right from the start and swordsmen take some time to get as Germany (Well, if you don't notice the Iron deposit as I failed to notice). It's good/ bad to read that I'll have to actually conquer Jerusalem for the VP's, but at least I haven't just sent one unit with my relic to get it... still, I don't see how I'm gonna conquer the place with just one jundred turns to go... we shall see.

	01-12-2003 21:36									#17
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You can either use diplomacy (RoP and march down) or the naval option (galleys down the coast.) Either one works pretty well, except that you may have to get into it with the countries you pass through on occasion.

I prefer the naval route myself - less complications - but obviously requiring a bit more resources.

	02-12-2003 02:25									#18
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I started this scenario as the French, my first conquest attempt. I've only researched Horseback riding (germans beat me toit by 4 turns!). I started to make war on the Germans and have built a good road system and made a city towards Consantinople where Milan would be in italy.

I wonder what the possibilities for making alliances would be here.. I may ally with england now i know they have an army, though i think the AI may have trouble moving the army across.

I've been using my kings (2of them) to explore the map, this might be dangerous, but the AI dosen't appear very aggresive early on.


I don't think differing Flavor techs from your own take longer to research. These only affect AI tactics for what to research.
This scenario makes them of some importance as civs start with 1 tech along their start chain.. except for the christian civs i believe.

I looked at the scenario under the civeditor.
England appears to be the only one with an army, Byzantines appear a good civ too.. they have a large capital (constaninpole) and start with some tech advantage.
The vikings have great millitary, good navies.
Interestingly, wonders also are affected by flavors, as well as any other building type.
Only the vikings for instance are likely to build the Norse Sage wonder (+2 seamove, increased leader appearance).

someone should make a hiscore table for everyone who completes this scenario Conquest. Only the first time they compelte it perhaps.

	02-12-2003 02:47									#19
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I suggest going for the Italian cities. You can build the galleys there and sail them around the coast. You won't even need a right of passage. You should be able to dodge any zones the byzantines have on the greek isles.

Jeruselim is heavily defended. You'll need at least 4 boat loads of troops to get it. 3 may be able to do it, but that might not be enough if they get reinforcements there in time.

	02-12-2003 04:25									#20
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This is an easy game for France.

I succeed to destroy German and Burghundy and create 2 Army of 4 Knight + 2 captured relics.

To bring my relics into Jerusalem, I decided to make ROP with all the nation between me and Jerusalem. By giving resource, technology and MAP I suceed to make ROP with everyone between Jerusalem and me. I succeed to bring my crusade near Jerusalem, so I declare war to Abyssid. And succeed(even if I cancelled my ROP agreement) to make many Millitary alliance against abassyd.

Jerusalem was heavily defended and it take me two turn to capture Jerusalem. By bringing my 3 relics into Jerusalem, I succeed to got my 30 000 points required to win the Scenario.

I know! This is a little "exploit" since never a "smart" human player will give me an ROP agreement in his territory, like Abassyd do with me.

See ya!

	02-12-2003 05:05									#21
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I finidhed the scenario today, 12 hours total, and a lot of fun!

I conquered Burgundy, destroying their entire civilisation when I took Pisa (I think). From there myself, France, England and Norway (!) scrambled to colonise the ruins of Italy, but I got enough coastal cities to make good. Then I loaded up galleys and went on a pilgrimmage across the sea... when I got to Jerusalem I found it was under siege from several different countries so my troops just waited until everyone had killed themselves off. Eventually, right after making peace with the owners of the city, the Byzantines conquered it, but left only three units in the city, so my knights army walked right in, took the VP, and I won, yay!

A really good game, I can see myself replaying it as other nations...

	02-12-2003 08:17									#22
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I played this one as Kievan Rus. It was interesting because you start out with few cities, and no neighbors readily visible. I sent all my Berzerks to Poland, and took it over, but then realized I needed to consolidate my borders, as settlers were flooding east. Even at the end I had Danish and Burgundian cities in the middle of my territory, and east of my territory, they as well as France and Sweden managed to settle. And Bulgaria I think had more cities over there than near their starting location.

I also found the German relic just sitting there, near Magyar territory about due north or so from Constantinople. I used this opportunity to beat down the Germans a little bit, and to get more sea access on the North Sea, so I could send Berzerks around to Jerusalem, since money was still too tight for embassies for ROPs.
For the whole beginning part tech was slow-coming and money was very tight. Somehow I managed to usually be ahead until about the third age, when Burgundy, France and Byzantium caught up.
I generally stopped expanding, seeking only to fill in culture holes to stop all those western settlers. But before long the Byzantines sneak attacked me. It was right after the war with Germany so I took awhile to reinforce. It was a precarious situation because I only really had a couple cities that were south of Kiev, of which they took one. So all my best cities were threatened. Still, I managed to rush and move enough units to take out their horsemen before they could take the cities, and then to retake the one city they took.
By then I had set out on the Byzantine path to get the Cataphracts, and decided to prepare a land and sea invasion to take Jerusalem. I got ROPs with all the necessary people and managed to take Jerusalem pretty easily. It just took awhile to get there. My forces were attacked by Assassins quite a bit. I kept my Berzerk holding the relic safely in a longship until I made peace with the Sassanids, which I did after taking Alexandria and Gaza as well.
While this was all happening, I was thinking of what to do with my huge army and I soon decided to fight the Franks after my war in the Holy Land. For some reason I didn't like the French, and they didn't like me. In fact, they snuck attack me before I was even ready to fight them. I took all their cities near my borders. Though I did temporarily lose a German city to them. Soon the immediate threat to my territory was gone, and the plagues began. I still needed more forces to take much of the main French territory, and it was hard to do with the plagues.
While this was all happening, I got a few Longships full of Berzerks, Cataphracts and captured Sassanid Catapults and launched a diversionary invasion in the south of France. For a while there I thought I'd even be able to hold the 2 cities I took and move up to pincer attack Paris, but the French Inquisators and Longbowmen had different ideas, and I lost those cities. But it did help divert French forces, because at this time I attacked in the north through Burgundy and Germany, who I had ROPs with. After some intense fighting I took a few more cities and then won a VP victory the turn after I took Paris.

You're right that they AI doesn't know how to use the relics, which is a shame. Also Russia is supposed to be in the Byzantine flavor, according to the civlopedia, but that wasn't the case. It's best to either use that wonder that gives 2 techs to get into another flavor, or research them early on when all techs cost a lot anyway, and the 40 turn wait isn't as prohibitive.

	02-12-2003 18:36									#23
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There's a 3rd way for Germany and Burgundy to reach Jerusalem: Kill everyone on the way


This means, you have to take only 3 Hungarian cities (they have only 2 Kings), then 2 Bulgarian cities; make peace, sign a RoP with Byzantium, and march enough units to Athens and Ankyra to immediatedly wipe them out once you've taken Constantinople...of course, this is as much a RoP rape as it could be, but historically quite acccurate. Then you simply have to capture a few Abbasid cities to reach Jerusalem (since you don't have to expect to get a RoP from them ).

This stratgy is especially useful since Byzantium and Abbasids are the 2 strongest AI Civ; I was forced to do that in my first game, since Theodora would have won instead within a few turns (she eliminated the Turks before).

Another thing: To compete in science, you simply have to get Arab learning as one of the first techs.
Like Fried, I think the best way to do so is building the HRE; of course, this requires to start a Palace prebuild in Orleans/ Chartres/ Cologne/ Würzburg within the very 1st turns.

	02-12-2003 19:49									#24
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Hmm, this thread seems to be popular in recent days... I guess everyone was playing the scenarios beginning with ancient ones going forward. So everyone is just starting to get round to Middle Ages about now, then.

	02-12-2003 20:05									#25
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Well it was just chance for me and it was only released a coupla Fridays ago over here too

	02-12-2003 20:36									#26
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quote: Originally posted by bfg9000 Hmm, this thread seems to be popular in recent days... I guess everyone was playing the scenarios beginning with ancient ones going forward. So everyone is just starting to get round to Middle Ages about now, then.

Exactly my plan, though I did play Mesoamerica and finished it just before Middle Ages - can't help it. Now I've just started Age of Discovery. I liked Middle Ages, very challenging for my gameplay style playing as the Germans, so next time - I intend to offer me the luxury to play an easier way for early expansion and berserking at large - with Kievan Rus perhaps.

	02-12-2003 23:38									#27
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Here is some weirdness in this scenario. Angers just flipped to me and inside is the shroud of turin, but it still shows up as french. Also the french established an embassy simultaneously. (a coincidence?) I hope that it doesn't crash anything...

	03-12-2003 01:13									#28
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edit: I missaw that. The game may crash after all

The only way they can get that back is conquer the city and have their unit pick it up. That treasure isn't going anywhere.

	03-12-2003 01:35									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Diss-

right, and the only way I can garrison the city is by either expelling the unit or declaring war. I expelled it. Not before building a disappearing spearman. my warriors walked to the gates and sat down.

I guess it has to be this way, the relics remain after the civ has been destroyed I guess, but ....could be better in culture flip situations, change the nationality or something.

	04-12-2003 16:06									#30
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I decided to try this one as the Swedish Vikings as I wanted to play with Berserks and Longships. I had tried a couple of starts as other civs but not played more than about 20 turns but did have some prior map knowledge because of this.

The Scandinavian Viking civs are definitely to be played as from the dark side. I played on regent and research by all the civs was painfully slow. My economy was non-existent. I realised very early on that I would not be able to support much military beyond a couple of spears per town as military police and also a lot of workers. The solution - slave labour. I started by attacking the english with every berserk I had. Took and razed Cirencester and seized the Holy Grail. Razed a few more english towns for slaves then they landed a swordsman in Sweden. Made peace, shipped the slaves back to start building roads and eliminated the 2 celtic kings. At this point I realised I could get a VP win with one relic if I trashed enough other civs. Also, taking out the Danes, Norwegians and English would mean I was largely immune to attack as no-one else had anything more than curraghs. Eliminating the Danish kings was fairly straightforward. By this stage I had a 3x berserk army and was able to march up to Repton and eliminate the last English king unit. The Norwegians fell to amphibious attacks and that was 4 civs down. By this point only the Abbasids were even in sight of my VP total.

I settled all of Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Finland. The developer diary refers to the union of Kalmar and that's what I ended up with.

Research was hopeless. I ended up researching the Viking techs of Seamanship and Smithing at 40 turns at 10% and picked up Horseback Riding over about 20 turns after I had contact with 7 or 8 civs that already had it. Otherwise I managed to extort Castle Building, Code of Laws, Map Making and Early Siegecraft for peace. At this stage I moved several longships loaded with Berserks into the Mediteranean, razing several Castilian and Cordovan coastal towns and extorting techs for peace. I established settlements on Majorca, Malta and Kos as depots and started in on the locals, shipping slave workers back to Scandinavia. This was so successful I was able to add my few native workers to towns and finished the game with a dozen or so slaves sitting waiting to be shipped back home.

I attacked the Fatimids. They woldn't give anything for peace so got eliminated. Then I razed the Burgundian cities in Italy. The Shroud of Turin was long gone and I never did find any of the other relics apart from the Grail. My settlement on Kos flipped to the Byzantines which led to war with them. No techs but a fairly good world map in exchange for peace this time.

Eventually I was ready to take on the Abbasids with 3 3x Berserk armies and 10 more Berserks, mostly elites. I razed Jerusalem and returned the Grail, taking me to just over 29000 VP's for the loss of 8 Berserks (attacking fortified spearmen in Jerusalem - fortunate that I had armies as the combat bonus made quite a difference). Razing a few more coastal Abbasid cities was enough for the 30,000 VP's needed to win.

I also managed to build the Domesday Book. The AI's didn't try and I assume they just didn't build enough town halls to be able to do so. The Germans built the HRE and were the only civ to really get anywhere on tech.

I won on turn 129 out of 204 with 30,315 VP. It was getting quite slow by that point between turns so I was glad to finish. It took just over 8 hours.

There is a bug about the edge of the map. I got a barbarian settlement on a tile on the northern edge that I could not move a unit to attack. I had to start another town and rush a temple and expand the boundary to get rid of it. This was particularly annoying as the camp spawned a barbarian uprising 1 turn before it would have been eliminated!!!!

The Scandinavian Viking civs are definitely to be played from the dark side. You can't afford anything more than 10% research and the only city improvements I knew how to build were barracks, temples, walls and town halls. Apart from that it is all about turning out Longships filled with Berserks and using them. If I had been more aggressive earlier on it would have been possible to get the VP win without any relics.

The frustrating thing about this scenario is the lack of harbours and trade. It totally kills playing the English. The harbour in Hedeby was destroyed as collateral damage when I atacked with a berserk so I was reliant on a Burgundian port for any link with the other civs, and my Danish towns, so that made war with Burgundy and Germany problematic.

All in all very enjoyable and a real change for me as I am usually a research junkie. Welcome to the dark side.