11-11-2003 19:07									#1
	AI Navy Issues Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I'm about 3/4 of the way through watching my first C3C debug game.

There are some nice improvements. As expected, AI builds a large navy now and we get to see some nice fleet v fleet action. I mean stacks of 6 frigates just going at each other, and ships swarming and then sinking landing parties escorted by several ships.

One thing that irked me though was that the ships have a penchant for bombarding cities.

Why? All that does is take off hp from units, and when it's not in support of land forces, that's just a waste of time and CPU cycles. I recall the AI navies used to prefer bombarding tile improvements.

Either BreakAway/Firaxis can code a way for the AI navies to recognize troop movements and them bombard cities in support of an invading force, or they should return the AI bombard back to the tile improvements, where the chance of hitting something is greater anyways and they can actually do some damage to cities by reducing food and production.

Is there anyway to code the AI ships to bombard vulnerable coastal strategic resources and luxuries as a top priority?

I know the BreakAway guys are really proud of the work they've done with the naval AI, and it shows. The AI uses navies now more than ever, they escort really well and the invasions I've seen tonight were some the most effective yet, especially when Frigates and Galleons become available-- those ships seem to trigger something in the AI. However, I think there's been a regression in parts of the code too, and I'm pointing it out here.

	11-11-2003 19:15									#2
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quote: I think there's been a regression in parts of the code too, and I'm pointing it out here.

Yeah, the regression is that land and air bombards only effect units.

I assume it's because AI still thinks that they are doing infrastructure damage to your cities even though they are just pinging units and not killing them. If they were doing damage to your city, that'd be an effective strategy.

	11-11-2003 19:18									#3
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quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm Yeah, the regression is that land and air bombards only effect units. I assume it's because AI still thinks that they are doing infrastructure damage to your cities even though they are just pinging units and not killing them. If they were doing damage to your city, that'd be an effective strategy.

Let's not go OT here warpstorm. There's about 3 other threads on that issue and we can disagree there.

But I seem to recall very strongly in Vanilla Civ3 that when AI has a navy and they are at war, they will bomb tile improvements, not cities.

I'm assuming the city bombardment preference comes from the WW II conquest scenario where it would make sense as you have lots of islands and coastal towns and naval bombardment would make marine landings easier. This however seem to have carried over to the regular game, which, doesn't help it so well.

	11-11-2003 19:31									#4
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Did you notice the AI building curraghs early on to explore?

I've only played one game into the medieval age, but mine was the only curragh I saw. That could be an issue.

-Arrian

	11-11-2003 20:14									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Did you notice the AI building curraghs early on to explore? I've only played one game into the medieval age, but mine was the only curragh I saw. That could be an issue. -Arrian

I'm on my second game (in the Industrial Age) both with all the seafaring Civs included, and I have never seen an AI Curragh.

Advantage --> Human.

	11-11-2003 20:27									#6
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That's what I was worried about...

-Arrian

	11-11-2003 21:45									#7
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quote: Originally posted by dexters But I seem to recall very strongly in Vanilla Civ3 that when AI has a navy and they are at war, they will bomb tile improvements, not cities.

You recall that because it is correct. I played vanilla CIV3 v1.29f alot (never got PtW) and yes I know for sure they would bombard my improvements.

	11-11-2003 21:57									#8
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They did that in PTW too. They'd blast the everliving **** out of your tile improvements if you let them.

I remember that from the "Total War" Apolyton University game. A HORDE of American frigates blasting away at my western shore every turn... that was almost more depressing than the fact I knew I was gonna lose.

-Arrian

	11-11-2003 22:23									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The AI sniping at your cities is supposed to make you anxious that it is prelude to invasion. They just have to add some credibility by occasionally having some troops follow.

	11-11-2003 22:53									#10
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quote: Originally posted by dexters Let's not go OT here warpstorm. There's about 3 other threads on that issue and we can disagree there. But I seem to recall very strongly in Vanilla Civ3 that when AI has a navy and they are at war, they will bomb tile improvements, not cities. I'm assuming the city bombardment preference comes from the WW II conquest scenario where it would make sense as you have lots of islands and coastal towns and naval bombardment would make marine landings easier. This however seem to have carried over to the regular game, which, doesn't help it so well.

Warpstorm is on-topic, though. The problem of the AI uselessly bombarding cities would be solved simply by making bombarding useful. If bombarding coastal cities started blasting their improvements, you can bet it would be a big problem for the player.

I'd also like to see them bombing valuable coastal tiles. Why can't we have both?

	11-11-2003 22:56									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe The AI sniping at your cities is supposed to make you anxious that it is prelude to invasion. They just have to add some credibility by occasionally having some troops follow.

But if it actuall damaged the cities, it would be even better, and might actually give a use for those currently-useless coastal fortresses!

	12-11-2003 01:59									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Did you notice the AI building curraghs early on to explore? I've only played one game into the medieval age, but mine was the only curragh I saw. That could be an issue. -Arrian

Unforutenately, no. The AI has galleys fairly early on and was ferrying settlers very quickly.

A caveat though is that My debug game was on a tiny map and continents 80% land. I chose this setting because this setup balances both land based warfare, and gives a chance for intercontinental warfare over a fairly short water distance.

The Sumerians knocked out the Dutch in a very early war and thus had a continent to themselves. This seem to have affected its naval development. It never built any transport ships beyond its single galley.

The Inca's on the otherhand had several transports and upgraded them with the times.

	12-11-2003 01:59									#13
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I was not going off topic at all. That is what I honestly think is going on. I think the AI routines were written assuming that some of their shots would do strategic damage to the infrastructure of your city tile, not taking into account the fact that an oversight lets all shots target only units.

Should it also trash the surrounding tiles? Yes, it should. That, combined with strategic bombing of your city tile, would put a real hurting on any coastal city.

	12-11-2003 04:30									#14
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Oh. I meant OT in terms of the bombard buildings vs. units damage issue :P

But everything you say sounds fine to me. As noted by several posters, it used to prefer "trashing" surrounding tiles. I can't speak for PTW since I actually didn't see much naval action, but I think... and this is a long shot, the city bombard preference might have been there in PTW and the designers simply missed it when they change the bombard effectiveness to effect only units. In this case, ships bombarding cities is no longer effective unless there is a landing force ready to take the city.

A switch back to the bombarding tiles would be welcome, although I wouldn't mind somehow taking this opportunity for BA and Firaxis to expand on the AI bombard routine and make then go after luxuries and resources in their range as well as support land forces moving towards a city.

	12-11-2003 04:32									#15
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quote: Originally posted by dexters A switch back to the bombarding tiles would be welcome, although I wouldn't mind somehow taking this opportunity for BA and Firaxis to expand on the AI bombard routine and make then go after luxuries and resources in their range as well as support land forces moving towards a city.

Especially as the air bombard does target these.