12-11-2003 04:45									#1
	Civ3:Conquests Copy Protection Issue Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Hi,

A bit of background, I'm running a P3:700 and am using a Plextor 12/10/32A as my main (and only) CD drive. My hard drives are on removable enclosures so that I have my own HD with everything the way I want it, and my wife has hers just as she likes it. Both are running Win2000 Pro w SP 4 (and hers is a recent full install on account of how I recently had to fix some windows issues). I also have a small (8 GB) HD I use for testing and it also has Win2000 Pro SP 4.

I'm a legal owner of both Civ3 and now as of a couple days ago Civ3:Conquests.

On my main HD, Civ3:Conquests does not launch, it keeps asking for the CD. The CD spins up and down a few times then it pops up a dialog box asking for the CD.

On my test HD, it does the exact same thing.

On my *wife's* HD on the other hand, it installs and works just fine, from this I infer that it's NOT the CD.

I (and my wife) would prefer that I not have to play it on hers. How do I work around this? I've tried creating an image of the CD and launching from that. Same results, works on hers, doesn't on mine. I'd prefer not to have to do a full reinstall of Win2000 just to get it to work, especially if it might not actually fix the issue.

I suppose I could wait for a crack to appear, but it really bothers me that I've paid the money for this game that I can't even use because of the brain-dead copy protection that they're using.

Am I overlooking something obvious? Any suggestions? Anyone else having this problem?

Thanks,
Gregg

	12-11-2003 05:18									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I have a somewhat related issue -- because of chronic back problems and increasing business travel demands, I ditched my big power laptop for a sub-3-pound dell that doesn't have a CD or DVD drive (the drive is in the docking station). Right now I have no way to get my c3c fix during mind-numbing 6-hour-cross-country flights because there's no way I'm going to lug my docking station everywhere I go!!!

	12-11-2003 05:44									#3
	Put an end to popups!

personally, here's what i would do:

unistall c3c.

rip a fresh clonecd image.

mount said image with daemon tools.

install c3c.

at that point, it *should* work just fine. it's what i did (minus the uninstall part), and i've had no trouble.

btw, you've got an interesting way to share a computer.

	12-11-2003 06:11									#4
	Support Apolyton

i was wondering about this for awhile.

i understand that companies want to protect their property, but perhaps there is a way to keep the no cd rule alive without penalizing legal owners of the game.

I mean, maybe game companies can set up a system where legal owners of a game can, at their option, contact the company and receive a "no cd" file (after of course proving to the company that they have legal ownership through a code etc...) so that legal owners have the option to play without the cd.

I think this should be seriously explored, since no matter whether you have a cd drive in your laptop or not, carrying all the cd's for all of your games, kinda negates the purpose of a laptop...

	12-11-2003 11:45									#5
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

that's what daemon tools is for

	12-11-2003 11:57									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

The devil himself has made copy protection the way it is today.

Stardock (developers of Galactic Civilizations) has the right idea. The say themselves that they would never dream of putting copy protection on their CD's, for the exact same reasons that you guys mention here. It penalizes the legal users.

What they do instead, is to offer unparallelled support for their software (Apps and games). This way, pirates have to constantly keep finding new versions (about one per month) of the game, if they want to keep up. It rewards those that have bought the game, and severely penalizes those who steal it. Just like it should be - not the other way around as it is today with copy protection.

Another reason why Stardock shun copy protection, is that they actually think that copy protection creates pirates. Why? Because of people like Videssian. A legal user who has problems with the copy protection. As a thought up example, Videssian could start searching the net for ways to play C3C without the CD. Before long he would find Warez sites, and cracks. He would download the no-cd-crack, and everything would be a-ok. And maybe, just maybe, the next time he ponders buying a game, he suddenly thinks: "Hey it was so easy with C3C, let me just download this next one too". And voilà....a pirated is created.

Disclaimer: I in no way infer that Videssian is actually a software pirate.



Asmodean

	12-11-2003 12:15									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Copy protection as it is used today is only a punishment for the legal buyer, nothing less and nothing more.

An "illegal user" will always find a pirated version or a no-CD crack on a warez site or some other way to bypass the CD protection. He will be able then to play the game without the CD, while we will have all kind of problems with spinning CDs and will be punished by denying the access to our CD drive (to listen music, for. ex) as long as we are playing (civ).

	12-11-2003 13:56									#8
	Suffering from ads?

It would be interesting to see any real figures on how copy protected cd's affect sales and profit....

I for one find it bloody annoying to carry my ptw cd back and forth between work and home all the time just so I can play my turn if a PBEM save arrives while I am at work.



One thing that is rarely mentioned here when people discuss workarounds for protected cd's. If you choose to download a hacked .exe file, remember that the hacker may have added a little 'surprise' for you. How about one free trojan for each civ3.exe? Nice isn't it? If you have to play civ with no cd, avoid the hack and try getting a cd-image to work instead.

	12-11-2003 19:58									#9
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by bongo It would be interesting to see any real figures on how copy protected cd's affect sales and profit....

The problem with this is that since everybody do it, there is no easy way to get these numbers. There simply isn't base for comparison. If more companies would take up the Stardock way, then perhaps we could start to figure out, how much of a difference it makes.

As it is now, I think that very few software pirates become pirates, only because of copy protection. So there are other factors as well.

Probably it hasn't that much impact on sales. Since the only alternative for the honest person is not to buy the game, there is a limit to how much this can actually hurt sales.

Asmodean

	12-11-2003 21:52									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I did manage to get it to work, but I'm still not sure how.. I (only) installed daemon tools (I already had a virtual drive set up with another program which is how I knew that just the image wasn't working). Well, it's working now. The actual CD I mean. So I'm confused. I install one other program (daemon tools) but don't do anything more than install it, and now it suddenly works, either with the CD or with an image. So I'm confused.

The "acid test" will be in a couple days, I'm upgrading to a larger HD, so I'm going to be reinstalling windows and my apps (minus some of the crud I've accrued) and if it works there, I'll be happy.. I'll keep you all updated.

Some opinions about the other stuff discussed here:
I don't think that most people who run pirated stuff are affecting sales much, and when it does it'll mostly be the expensive stuff. Most software is too expensive. I won't balk at paying $40 for a *good* game, but I sure would balk at paying that money for a mediocre or highly buggy one. And many "productivity" applications cost MUCH more, and often more than they ought to. And when a company (for example": adobe) acts unethically (the whole Skylarov thing) it makes one much less disposed to buying their products, even if one might feel it's fairly priced. And too, companies will sometimes turn a blind eye to it if they're after market share above all else (Microsoft in asia for the most part), all of this is my opinion of course, but I guess I'm trying to say that piracy and the reasons for it are complicated and it's not as a straightforward issue as it might look at at first glance.

I've always been opposed to copy protection. It causes problems for legitimate users (will Civ3:Con even work in Longhorn a few years from now because of it?) but isn't any real barrier to people who wouldn't buy the software anyway. It treats people likes thieves and by doing so essentially encourages people to become one (with software).

(and don't get me started with the RIAA! *laughs*)

Thanks,
Gregg

	12-11-2003 22:53									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Try Alcohol120. I use it on all my games. I mount any game CD in the virtual drive and they work fine. CivIII/PTW/C3C.
The only problem is that some protection scheme require a long copy process and you have to have the entire CD image on your HD. After 20-30 games, that is a lot of space, so get a large drive.

	13-11-2003 02:51									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Which is exactly why I don't use virtual drives that much. Those disk images just take up too much HDD space.

But yeah...they are a working solution to a pain-in-the-ass problem.

Asmodean

	13-11-2003 04:45									#13
	Suffering from ads?

I just looked at mine and it is at 21GB. That is no sweat if you have a 60 GB or larger drive. Those are common now. It sure is nice to not have to get up and look for a CD if you want to switch to a different game.

	13-11-2003 13:21									#14
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Disk space is cheap. As civ is the only game I play, space is not an issue.

	13-11-2003 22:19									#15
	Got spare money?

*Asmodean takes a loók at the amount of free space on his 80GB HDD*

Yup...space can become a problem, even for medium sized HDDs

Asmodean

	13-11-2003 22:27									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

fortunately, the cost of storage drops in half every year.. just bought a 160 GB to go with my other identical 160 GB (both Maxtor).. I'll be using the old one as a backup for the first one, and down the line in a year or two when I upgrade my system I'll probably use them in a RAID setup..

	16-11-2003 07:27									#17
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Ok, this is ticking me off..

I got in my 160 GB and I installed windows on it. Transferred my files, installed Civ3:C. Doesn't work (same issue as previous). I still have that image of it that I created (and that works in my wife's HD). Installed Alcohol 120% and used it to emulate a CD. Same problem. Installed Daemon-tools, set it to emulate, same problem. Told it to emulate Safedisc (what Civ3:C seems to be using) and tried again. Still same problem.

I'm upset at this point. I've never had this kind of an issue with anything else I've bought. I know it's not the disk media itself, since it does work on my wife's computer. That doesn't really help ME though.

Any other suggestions?

	16-11-2003 11:16									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Actually it use SecuRom 4.8.x. Use Alcohol120 with the option for SecuRom NEW(4.8) and max speed at the lowest settings.
It works fine for me on CivIII, PTW and C3C. Make sure you have one of the last two versions of Alc120, prior to that IIRC it was on the list.

	16-11-2003 13:27									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Thanks very much!

The image that I have previously created (that works on my wife's HD) now will work on mine if I set daemon-tools to use securom emulation. Now I have a way to run this! thanks!

(Now if only Atari/Firaxis would ship this thing without the copy protection so all this nonsense wouldn't be necessary, but I know that's not going to happen)..

	16-11-2003 14:43									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Have you tested another cd-rom, because it might be the cd-rom that cause the problem, check the idé cable, test another cable. It seems like the cd-rom have problem reading the cd. or bad drivers to the cd-rom.

Good luck, and hope you be able to fix the problem soon!!

	16-11-2003 15:25									#21
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

You should report this in the bug thread if you haven;t already, or email Breakaway (think that's the correct group to contact) and tell them everything. There are often problems like this with games, and many times they are fixed in patches.

	16-11-2003 17:39									#22
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Try Alcohol120. I use it on all my games. I mount any game CD in the virtual drive and they work fine. CivIII/PTW/C3C. The only problem is that some protection scheme require a long copy process and you have to have the entire CD image on your HD. After 20-30 games, that is a lot of space, so get a large drive.

You must end up with a lot of drive letters. I'm up to "I" on one machine without any virtual drives.

	17-11-2003 00:39									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by bongo Disk space is cheap. As civ is the only game I play, space is not an issue.

hi ,

space does matter in the comp world , even if it aint used or it shows like it aint used , take a look at defrag , the more space one has , the faster the comp , the speed is also a big deal in this , .......

have a nice day

	17-11-2003 01:09									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by SpencerH You must end up with a lot of drive letters. I'm up to "I" on one machine without any virtual drives.

No, I use F only. You must make the image with Alc120. Then install the game from the virtual drive. After that you can mount it any time on that virtual drive. Newer games are not concerned with what drive they were install from, but older ones will not run, if they are mounted on a different one.
I only mount one game CD at a time. Since it takes just a couple of clicks to change images.

I use only one HD on this machine and one burner and one reader. So it is C/D/E and F for virtual one. I had a second HD on my previous machine, but never used it, so did not get one this time. I intended for it to be a mirror of my C drive, but I was too lazy to keep it up to date.

	17-11-2003 01:59									#25
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

My install didn't even care about being installed from the virtual. I used the CD at first, then switched to the virtual. (hehe didn't want to wait the extra hour to make a copy when I got home)

	17-11-2003 04:06									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

It may not be required for some games, but I have had many not work until I installed from the image. I just do it that way on all now. It is one of the items mention on their web site.

	17-11-2003 04:42									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

this thread isnt necessary. theres nocd patch for virtually every game. And no, I wont tell you where to get it (nor am i allowed to) but its so easy to search for it that its kinda pointless for me to do so.

	17-11-2003 05:32									#28
	Put an end to popups!

Probably most threads are not necessary, but that is not the cirteria.
Videssian may have found it useful, so may others using Alchol120. Some may not know where to find nocd tools, yes I know.

	17-11-2003 12:21									#29
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Zero , are you referring to an official nocd patch or a hack? I would leave the hack alone. That's just asking for trouble. Or do you trust the worlds hackers to not install malware in such 'patch'


Edit:typo

Last edited by bongo on 17-11-2003 at 14:11

	17-11-2003 14:00									#30
	Increase the size of your Attachments

A problem with no-cd hacks is that they can cause unspecified errors later on. I am certain that, for games I have applied no-cd cracks to, savegames tend to get corrupt far more often later on (at the most annoying time possible of course!), then if I live with having to insert the CD all the time.