15-11-2003 11:15									#31
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Don't see repair ships or using allied harbors as being possible. How about building a "Naval Base" in neutral territory (like building an Air Base in neutral territory)?

	15-11-2003 17:00									#32
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With what?

	15-11-2003 17:50									#33
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker With what?

Driftwood.

	16-11-2003 10:42									#34
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker With what?

The same way you build airbases, of course.

	16-11-2003 10:57									#35
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hi ,

, great idea , but it would need some changes , ships should only get a couple hitpoint more from it as for some works it would have to return to a drydock , .....

at the same time a drydock wonder should be build , a wonder that heals ships in one turn ( small wonder ) and gives some extra cash to the city its build in , ....

and while we are at sea , canals

and the idea about refueling would indeed be nice also , .....

but for all of that , its either the next XP or civ IV , ......

have a nice day

	16-11-2003 11:07									#36
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I see drydocks as something that is integral to harbors (due to their repair capability). Canals (like Panama and Suez) sound like a great idea! It would probably take workers a long time to lay them down but it is also something I'd like to see in the future.

(I'm already thinking of offensive and defensive strategies with canal building... )

	16-11-2003 13:26									#37
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repair ships are a bad idea.

Look at ships like the Cole, and the USS Liberty (blasted apart by the Israelis). They had to be towed to shipyards in Spain and such.

Thus, the only logical solution would be to have friendly cities repair ships ala Civ2. Civ2 was way ahead of its time here.

	16-11-2003 18:19									#38
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There is always the question about game-balance and the AI not being able to cope with it and such but generally I'm in favour of the idea.

It's just so more convenient to repair your ship in a friendly harbor than building/capturing a city yourself.

	16-11-2003 20:39									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Vince278 The same way you build airbases, of course.

On water?

* Kuciwalker points out how workers move

	16-11-2003 20:52									#40
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Skywalker, I think Vince278 was talking about neutral territory on land.

The problem I see with that is that, by the time you have many ocean-going ships all the territory is taken already.

	16-11-2003 22:41									#41
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Ah. That would make more sense

	16-11-2003 23:15									#42
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in my original conception of civ3, deserts, tundras, forests, and jungles were uninhabitiable. I saw a lot more open spaces in my mind.

	17-11-2003 00:49									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident repair ships are a bad idea. Look at ships like the Cole, and the USS Liberty (blasted apart by the Israelis). They had to be towed to shipyards in Spain and such. Thus, the only logical solution would be to have friendly cities repair ships ala Civ2. Civ2 was way ahead of its time here.

hi ,

what about all the other ships who can do with small repair at sea , ......

mostly used in the vietnam era , ........

have a nice day

	17-11-2003 01:51									#44
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well I was in the navy. There is a limit to how much repair we can do at sea.

Look at recent history of badly damaged navy ships. They HAD to go to shipyards.

The USS Enterprise badly damaged by fire in the late 60's.

The USS Forrestal very badly damaged by fire supporting the vietnam conflict in the late 60's.

USS Liberty badly damaged by Israel. Went to Spain for repairs.

USS Cole moderately damaged by Terrorists in 2000. Had to be towed to Norfolk.

We really had NO ability to repair our ships at sea. The best we could do is shore up damaged spaces to prevent the loss of the ship and/or further damage.

There are repair teams that can fly out to the ship from SIMA's (shore intermediate maintenance activities) and from some bases in Europe. But the there is a limit to what amount of repairs they can do. Without cranes to lift huge plates of steel (and aluminum for the cruiser/destroyer/frigate type ships that use aluminum), any decent repairs cannot be done.

	17-11-2003 01:55									#45
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I should mention there are ships that are called Tenders. They are essentually repair ships. But the US navy really only used them for submarines. I guess it wasn't practical to have tenders for larger ships.

Tenders were used much more in the old days. WW2 and such.

I guess they were too expensive to maintain. I never see them anymore. Why didn't they use one for the USS Cole?

I'm checking this website

http://www.nvr.navy.mil/nvrships/details/AD44.htm

And it lists all the ships- including Tenders. But they all seem to be scrapped. I never seen one in the time I was in the navy.

I guess they were too expensive to maintain.

Last edited by Dis on 17-11-2003 at 02:04

	17-11-2003 02:04									#46
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quote: well I was in the navy. There is a limit to how much repair we can do at sea. Look at recent history of badly damaged navy ships. They HAD to go to shipyards.

I suppose it depends how many ships you consider represented by the unit on your screen. I see each ship unit representing more than one ship, and the towed ships would simply be its lost hit points.

I dont agree with the repair ship idea. Its too different from anything current and its not especially realistic. Most importantly the micromanagment would be a pain in the arse and would detract from the fun.

As for friendly ports, how about friendly AI ports only being able to heal if they have a harbour facility? This reduces the abuse potential, but I imagine it would make it even harder for the AI to understand.

	17-11-2003 02:05									#47
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ahh I forgot about the USS Grapple

I seen that ship in Norfolk.

http://www.nvr.navy.mil/nvrships/details/ARS53.htm

that's more of a salvage and recovery ship than a repair ship though. It was used in that plane that went down in the ocean outside of New York city back in the 90's.

http://navysite.de/ars/ars53.htm

I'm still trying to find a website of a Tender that is still in service. But even Tenders had limited capabilities of repairing ships.

	17-11-2003 02:14									#48
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ahh I found one. Submarine tender. I knew these ships still had to be around. I knew guys who served on sub tenders.

http://navysite.de/ships/as40.htm

The thing you guys should know about Tenders is that they are mainly designed to fix internal equipment. Equipement can be lifted out and repaired on the Tender, and then brought back to the ship. They do appear to have a crane.

But their ability to make major hull repairs is limited. You almost always have to be in dry dock to to that.

	17-11-2003 05:16									#49
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The question is not reality, but on whether such a change would be good for THE GAME.

Allow me to just think aloud a little here:

I too have been frequently annoyed at having ships damaged at sea and having to return vast distances to be repaired. Some of this will have been alleviated by the extra movement rate of ships. If we increased this movement rate further, then that helps even more, but could lead more to ships sailing in, bombarding and sailing well out of range of any land artillery. I would fix this by ensuring that at least some ships lose their movement when bombarding, to give the defenders the chance to retaliate with Artillery.

As to ships repairing at sea, that is not realistic, true, but it can't be that easy for Swordsmen or Modern Tanks to recruit new men/ patch up their specialised equipment with things they find in enemy territory, can it? I think adding the ability for ships to self-heal (at least after a particular advance perhaps) is a fair idea for the game. The only question is whether this would be unbalancing or not. You could have a large fleet head in, bombard the hell out of an enemy and retreat just out of their range to heal before returning. With the changes to ships in C3C, they seem to be geared towards making it more important to counter with a navy of your own, so I don't see this scenario as being inconsistent with the direction Conquests takes the game in. Perhaps the ability for ships to heal at sea could be another Small Wonder, or only ships built at Port Facilities would have the Engineers onboard qualified to make repairs.

In other words I think ships healing at sea is not unbalancing, and would generally be a good thing for the game.

	17-11-2003 08:31									#50
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I like the small wonder idea.

It would be named and described as giving a nation the ability to deploy tenders and maintenance ships throughout the world.

So you wouldn't have an actual maintenance ship unit, it would be just simulated using the small wonder.

	17-11-2003 17:13									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident well I was in the navy. There is a limit to how much repair we can do at sea. Look at recent history of badly damaged navy ships. They HAD to go to shipyards. The USS Enterprise badly damaged by fire in the late 60's. The USS Forrestal very badly damaged by fire supporting the vietnam conflict in the late 60's. USS Liberty badly damaged by Israel. Went to Spain for repairs. USS Cole moderately damaged by Terrorists in 2000. Had to be towed to Norfolk. We really had NO ability to repair our ships at sea. The best we could do is shore up damaged spaces to prevent the loss of the ship and/or further damage. There are repair teams that can fly out to the ship from SIMA's (shore intermediate maintenance activities) and from some bases in Europe. But the there is a limit to what amount of repairs they can do. Without cranes to lift huge plates of steel (and aluminum for the cruiser/destroyer/frigate type ships that use aluminum), any decent repairs cannot be done.

hi ,

you are getting the extreme ones , ......

small little repairs , for example , an elite ship is down to one hitpoint and can move only one tile a turn due to its damage , a repair ship should be able to give it one extra hitpoint , .....

small repairs and refuel and rearm (!)

then a small wonder for each civ ; drydock and maybe one huge mobile drydock as a great wonder , ...... (?)

have a nice day

	17-11-2003 17:18									#52
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The problem with healing ships is that you get these super units who will be hard to knock down. Lathal sea means lethal sea. And if a ship has 1 hp, you better have it return to port or risk having it bombed into oblivion or hit by another fleet.

Most maps are small enogh that ports are 2 to 3 turns sail away. And for those longer sail times, it's a logisitical challenge, and not a gameplay problem if you have a damaged ship that can't be replaced being forced to retire. Too bad. Build more ships.

I'm not toally opposed to healing ships, its just that I'm not convinced it will be that helpful. Since naval combat in Civ3 is a different beast than the land component, we need to keep the distinction, and the challenge now, with the rise of airpower in C3C is really guarding those fleets.

I've seen the AI manage quite well. Albiet in a tiny 60x60 debug continents game. I'm sure things will be more challenging in larger maps. But the point stands.

	17-11-2003 18:28									#53
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Well if you have lethal sea bombardment and are contending with airforces wouldnt healing at sea help?

And I don't know what kind of size maps are "mostly" only 2-3 turns from a friendly port - either less than normal sized or where you already have ports everywhere. I have never played on anything less than normal and with continents my Destroyers et al. are usually 6-9 turns from any kind of safety. When you look at the round trip it is rather tedious to have these expensive units trundling up and down all the time - if there's ever a way to enhance the usefulness and desirability of a navy it's to make them more like land units in usefulness - let them stay in the field for more than a few attacks. Who would bother with an attacking navy if you have to either mass enormous numbers of expensive ships just to keep a decent presence up whilst retreating half the time halfway across the map to repair or just having one turn in 12+ where you can do some good with them? This would help the AI actually make use of ships too, instead of wasting hundreds of shields on them only to have you cripple them and deny the enemy a chance to do anything with them?

I really do think a change like this would be beneficial from the standpoint of improvng the AI's effectiveness and in making sea-born conflict more than just an amusing yet useless aside.

	17-11-2003 18:35									#54
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quote: Originally posted by dexters The problem with healing ships is that you get these super units who will be hard to knock down. Lathal sea means lethal sea. And if a ship has 1 hp, you better have it return to port or risk having it bombed into oblivion or hit by another fleet. Most maps are small enogh that ports are 2 to 3 turns sail away. And for those longer sail times, it's a logisitical challenge, and not a gameplay problem if you have a damaged ship that can't be replaced being forced to retire. Too bad. Build more ships. I'm not toally opposed to healing ships, its just that I'm not convinced it will be that helpful. Since naval combat in Civ3 is a different beast than the land component, we need to keep the distinction, and the challenge now, with the rise of airpower in C3C is really guarding those fleets. I've seen the AI manage quite well. Albiet in a tiny 60x60 debug continents game. I'm sure things will be more challenging in larger maps. But the point stands.

hi ,

well the repair ship would only give one HP , and to make things better , the ships should move according to the number of HP's they have left after a battle , ......

on 250 or more maps naval warfare changes all the way , ......

have a nice day

	19-11-2003 10:53									#55
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quote: Originally posted by G'Kar The problem I see with that is that, by the time you have many ocean-going ships all the territory is taken already.

Oh. I haven't thought about that. On the other hand, maybe my idea will still work for those isolated one and two square islands in the middle of nowhere (and some huge maps).

Perhaps an ally will allow a forward naval (or air) base to be built (like Subic Bay, Camh Ran Bay, Yokosuka, etc).

	19-11-2003 11:02									#56
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt The question is not reality, but on whether such a change would be good for THE GAME.

For me realism makes the game more enjoyable. I think a wonder that allows healing at sea may strike a balance between the two.

	20-11-2003 17:21									#57
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With regards to forward Naval bases etc....you could "rent" a single coastal square from an ally and use a worker to build the port. The deal could last for the usual twenty turns and be renegotiated in the usual way. Naval ports and air bases could then work in the same way. You "hire" them for however long you need them.

At the same time you could rent out your own to allies earning cash etc for their use. Breach of the deal would be a major "rep" hit and could lead to instant war. This was the way in which britain did and the US still does maintain influence around the world. Just think of the Hong Kong handover in 1997...Britain handed it back (along with all the naval facilities) when their lease expired.

	20-11-2003 17:44									#58
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I guess it could work. But I still think 'repair in friendly port' would be both 'better' and easier to implement.

	20-11-2003 18:27									#59
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My vote would be for a small wonder that
allows ships to heal at sea, but SLOWLY, like
one hitpoint per turn. This way, badly damaged
ships would still be better of heading to a port,
while battleships that take one damage for
sinking a freaking Barb ship
(or lesser AI civ ships)
don't stay crippled.

And actually, maybe even two small wonders,
one regular, and one for modern time ships.

Timmer

	20-11-2003 19:16									#60
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There are only so much you can do at sea. Maybe a small wonder(minor naval repair) which allowed a damaged ship to gain 1hp only by skipping an entire turn. So if your battleship lost 1hp you could get it back to full, but if it got down to 1/4 you could get it back to 2/4 which would help to get the ship back alive but not make the ship useful for full service again. Badly damaged ship would still have to return to a port repairs.


Slightly OT but I always found it strange that if I bring 10 battleships to an enemy coast to have some fun, I won't even bring 1 of them back for repairs until 8 or 9 of them are in the red. 1 ship at 4/4 + 9 at 1/4 will bombard just as good as 10 ships at 4/4.