13-11-2003 23:44									#61
	Got spare money?

also, if we added one content face to the colosseum

not only would it be better for most civs (40 cost per face)

but would come earlier

this would not be ballanced at all

Jon Miller

	13-11-2003 23:45									#62
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Captured artillery units are maintenance-free. Not a big deal in SP perhaps, but a possible exploit in MP

	13-11-2003 23:55									#63
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I agree that reduced shield cost for Colosseums would be the way to go.

	13-11-2003 23:58									#64
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Initial post updated.

	14-11-2003 00:00									#65
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Or giving them more culture points. Of course that may lead to other (minor) changes.

	14-11-2003 00:03									#66
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by korn469 alexman adding a lethal stealth attack flag, then selecting tanks, modern armor, etc as the only units air units can stealth attack fixing the problem of air units killing infantry

This seems like a perfectly reasonable (although a bit time-consuming) workaround to me.

	14-11-2003 00:09									#67
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

RobC

you could also use it in Mods and Scenarios, either suggestion, "lethal stealth attacks" or "immune to lethal bombard" would work, and both could give modders more options

here's a bug that needs confirmation, when running a modded government with free building upkeep, but requires unit upkeep in a deficit, only one unit per turn will disband, regardless of the deficit

	14-11-2003 00:40									#68
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

For the editor, I would like the "Requires xxxx in city radius" to include bonus resources, not just strategic and luxury resources.

	14-11-2003 00:44									#69
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Stuie, that's probably not an easy fix, because nowhere in the game engine is the trade network checked for bonus resources. Why don't you just flag the required bonus resource as strategic?

	14-11-2003 00:46									#70
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by alexman Stuie, that's probably not an easy fix, because nowhere in the game engine is the trade network checked for bonus resources. Why don't you just flag the required bonus resource as strategic?

I don't want it to be "tradeable". You're probably right though... not an easy fix.

	14-11-2003 01:29									#71
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I disagree about removing the AI offence flag from Num. Mercenaries. They are frequently worth 50% more as an attacking unit to the AI than archers and I've not seen them built ahead of swordsmen.

	14-11-2003 01:32									#72
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by korn469 RobC you could also use it in Mods and Scenarios, either suggestion, "lethal stealth attacks" or "immune to lethal bombard" would work, and both could give modders more options

But the former (selecting which units may be stealth attacked) is already in the editor...

	14-11-2003 01:44									#73
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Stuie I don't want it to be "tradeable". You're probably right though... not an easy fix.

No need for concern. In PTW I had bonus res converted to strategic res so I could have them disappear. The AI wouldn't give me piddly squat for any of them.*

*Unless one was required for something and they didn't have it.

	14-11-2003 01:56									#74
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Jaybe No need for concern. In PTW I had bonus res converted to strategic res so I could have them disappear. The AI wouldn't give me piddly squat for any of them.* *Unless one was required for something and they didn't have it.

But being required to be in the city radius for an improvement is enough to give a resource value to the AI even though it's useless to trade for.

I've pointed out that the Iron Works is resposible for a third of the AI trade value of Iron in the ancient age before now.

	14-11-2003 02:16									#75
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

The AI builds all of its available units for a certain purpose. That's why it builds some guerillas when it has access to rubber.

So once the AI gets iron, it definitely uses up some of its offensive unit build quota for mercs instead of swordsmen.

	14-11-2003 02:30									#76
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I've not seen it build enough mercs when it has Iron to be a serious disavantage.

If building mercs instead of archers is often an advantage, then that is likely to be more important.

It's not as clear-cut as for the other units.

	14-11-2003 02:30									#77
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller the only advantages the cathedral has is in culture and content faces in every other way colloseums are better they cost less, are avaiable earlier, and don't require a prerequisite Jon Miller

Don't forget that you can get Sistine and double their value.

	14-11-2003 02:31									#78
	Re: FIRAXIS: A list of EASY fixes for the next C3C patch Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by alexman [*]Remove the explore command from Leader, Catapult, Cannon, Hwach'a, Artillery, Radar Artillery, Settler, Worker.

And from Trebuchet.

	14-11-2003 05:17									#79
	Remove this text

Starting worker locations in the Rise of Rome scenario disperately need relocated out of the capitals.

Because, I just bought the Greece, Egyptian, and Persian worker as Rome on turn 1 in that game before any of them get a chance to move. (This would probably be easier to implement that the real fix of the underlaying issue which is that the AI really shouldn't be offering to sell workers at any price while they still have improvments left to perfom.)

	14-11-2003 06:01									#80
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Remove the explore command from ... Catapult, Cannon, Hwach'a, Artillery, Radar Artillery ...

I wonder, was the explore command given to these in an attempt to get them out of the cities, and into offensive use?

	14-11-2003 07:29									#81
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

RobC

but I was asking for a flag to use in conjunction with it

	14-11-2003 07:53									#82
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Alex,

I'm going to push again for the suggestion for the AI navies to switch to tile bombardment. The current set-up is NOT working.

The AI has now been improved sufficiently to field large navies, and it would be a waste in the Epic games to see all these ships bombard essentially useless targets.

Tile improvement bombard were what navies used to do in Civ iii and PTW. Let's return it that way.

Edit: The alternative of course, is to increase naval bombard strength so it does more damage to units fortified in cities and make them 'smarter' at massing near cities where they are abound to land their troop stacks.

Last edited by dexters on 14-11-2003 at 08:05

	14-11-2003 08:29									#83
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Or to have their bombardments of cities trash infrastructure and population in addition to units.

	14-11-2003 08:36									#84
	Inflate your Upload Space

WS, I think that will lead us back to the abuse scenario that ruled out Alex's initial suggestion of lethal land. While it will be harder, all you do is have a navy show up to a coastal cities, bomb for several turns to trash barracks and send in troops by land to finish it. Might as well plaster "We are the new arty exploit of the high seas" next to the destroyers.

I personally think tile bombard causes significant damage and is relatively easy to implement since this is what the AI used to do. smarter bombardment of tiles will certainly be welcome, but with top tier AI civs now easily fielding 20 destroyers, + battleships and cruisers (under Standard maps), having that fleet show up to level your tile improvements would create enough damage for the human player, while at the same time, not allowing human players to 'exploit' a gameplay mechanic, like the arty stacks of doom that have grown so popular.

In conclusion, title improvement bombard is really what will work best. The original design was correct, and BA and Firaxis should change it back. This coupled with large AI navies should make things very interesting.

	14-11-2003 08:47									#85
	Remove this text

I would like to see bombardment simply changed back to how it was in vanilla CIV3. That is with the AI attacking improvements and infastructure/garrison damage.

	14-11-2003 08:55									#86
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Some of us were quite vocal in some of these changes during the beta test. I for one was among those who advocated eliminating the hardcoded distinction between MGLs and SGLs. Same was also said about removing the hardcoded unlimited movement from railroads. Unfortunately, the answer was quite simple: those changes would require to much code change to be worthwhile. Not being a programmer myself I guess there's not much we can really do about it. So, don't want to sound like a party-pooper but this excuse might make it very likely that many of these suggestions, while very good IMO, will not be implemented.

Now that I got that out my system, here's a change I would like:

NO LETHAL BOMBARD FOR BOMBERS

Bombers have INCREDIBLE bang-for-the-buck, heck, they usually never even make Stealth Bombers necessary. To top it off, now they have lethal land bombardment?!? I remember a scenario in the beta test where my bombers would simply wait in an offshore city and pick off enemy units one by one as they came into view. I didn't even have any troops in the enemy territory and his army was decimated. How real is that for a WW2-era military unit?

How many WW2 heavy bombers sank enemy ships? How many WW2 heavy bombers destroyed army formations? This is not only unrealistic from a historical point of view, but it makes the bomber unit just TOO powerful. Yeah I b*tched about this one too during the beta...

(btw, I understand that in the WW2 Pacific scenario the lethal bombard makes the scenario more realistic but emphasis here should be on the epic game default rules.)

	14-11-2003 09:05									#87
	Fixes Redux... Increase Your PM Length

Would like and want a fix that prevents me from playing so I can get some sleep and get to work...

...work in Film & TV, 16 hour days and dangit, I get home wanting to play.... Boooooooo Firaxis!!!!

	14-11-2003 09:15									#88
	Suffering from ads?

This whole bombard issue is very difficult to settle, because there is no way everyone will agree on one solution. I'm afraid we will have to live with Firaxis' current implementation.

I'll update the initial post tomorrow...

	14-11-2003 09:45									#89
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by alexman This whole bombard issue is very difficult to settle, because there is no way everyone will agree on one solution. I'm afraid we will have to live with Firaxis' current implementation. I'll update the initial post tomorrow...

Once people start playing with the new bomber settings you'll see just how destabilizing they are in SP games. Btw, this only applies to regular bombers. Stealth Bombers are good as they are with the lethal bombardment, after all, something better make them worth the extra cost.

	14-11-2003 09:45									#90
	Suffering from ads?

I'd like to see...

Naval Air with lethal sea bombardment, and Attack Air with lethal land bombardment.

Each would have reduced bombardment values, but could kill their targets. Generic (heavy) Bombers could dish out the punishment but not kill anything.