14-11-2003 10:41									#91
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Here's another one -
Governor Checkbox - Where should I assign extra citizens - Entertainment, Tax, Science, Police, Civil Engineer? - Seems simple enough - and lets you manage more effectivly without micromanaging

	14-11-2003 12:17									#92
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I'd like to see... Naval Air with lethal sea bombardment, and Attack Air with lethal land bombardment. Each would have reduced bombardment values, but could kill their targets. Generic (heavy) Bombers could dish out the punishment but not kill anything.

I totally agree, with the addition that lethal bombard have a similar unit list to stealth bombard, so you can set lethality just to armor, not to infantry.

	14-11-2003 12:40									#93
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I just starting playing into the game far enough to have bombers and I am with Master Zen. I would send out a fighter to recon and spot ships and lights out. No letting them limp away to come back later.

	14-11-2003 13:44									#94
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quote: Originally posted by alexman This whole bombard issue is very difficult to settle, because there is no way everyone will agree on one solution. I'm afraid we will have to live with Firaxis' current implementation. I'll update the initial post tomorrow...

That's fine Alex. But the bombardment issue is so broad that I'm not exactly which you're referring to. Air, naval or land?

With respect to Naval bombardment, I'm not so concerned about the amount of damage ships can dish out, or any gameplay mechanic tied to the human player. This is purely an AI issue.

The suggestion falls more closely under an AI fix to move AI ship bombardment preference from bombarding cities to cities + tile improvements, or just tile improvements. The latter being the original design of the game.

	14-11-2003 15:15									#95
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quote: Originally posted by dexters WS, I think that will lead us back to the abuse scenario that ruled out Alex's initial suggestion of lethal land. While it will be harder, all you do is have a navy show up to a coastal cities, bomb for several turns to trash barracks and send in troops by land to finish it. Might as well plaster "We are the new arty exploit of the high seas" next to the destroyers.

And how is this any different than Vanilla Civ3 or PTW? I don't remember hearing anyone saying that this was a big exploit in the past two years.

	14-11-2003 16:21									#96
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Well, I think the point is to minimize the amount of instances where humans gain uneccessary advantages.
The arty stacks of doom were known exploits. Its whispered in strategy conversations, and I'm sure some of the beta testers had a big sway in changing the land bombard to the way it is. And from my point of view, that's evidence enough that people knew it existed and its simply been that Firaxis never got around to tweaking it. remember, PTW had almost no gameplay tweaks. it was an MP expansion. In the line of XPs, Conquests can be seen as really the first XP.

In anycase, I'm going OT. Sea bombardment should go for tiles. I'm not big on the idea of hitting improvements since artys are now nerfed, ships will just be exploited and become the new artys of the high seas. Totally no need for that. The old title bombard worked just fine in destroying production, commerce. and roads.

	14-11-2003 16:39									#97
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quote: Originally posted by dexters In the line of XPs, Conquests can be seen as really the first XP.

I was just thinking that last night.............Conquests content makes PTW looks pretty empty, especially since MP didn't really work to begin with.

	14-11-2003 18:20									#98
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IMO, bombardment should have logic something like this:

1. Is there an enemy resource in range?
Yes--> Bomb the tile until the resource is disconnected.
No-->
2. Are there enemy ships in range?
Yes--> Bomb the ships until they all sink.
No-->
3. Are there enemy land forces in the open in range?
Yes--> Bomb the exposed enemy land forces.
No-->
4. Are there enemy cities in range?
Yes--> Bomb the enemy cities.
No-->
5. Is there enemy infrastructure in range (any other tile improvement) ?
Yes--> Bomb closest enemy tile improvement.
No-->
6. Rebase to a location with enemy targets in range.

	14-11-2003 20:16									#99
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quote: Originally posted by dexters Well, I think the point is to minimize the amount of instances where humans gain uneccessary advantages.

No artillery/bombardment unit should have Lethal Bombard (apart from, perhaps, the H'wacha).

Let's face it: naval units are more or less useless in Civ3 (for and against the AI). I always laugh when I see 1000+ Shields of boats show up on my coast, trying desperately to mess up my plans by blowing a few Railraods apart or, with C3C, knocking a few HPs off my defenders (which are usually non-existent pre-Amphibious). I also laugh when I know I can safely get a Transport to anywhere I want to with little or no escort, because it's too Shield-intensive to patrol every around every port (perhaps it's not: the AI could be taught to park a boat outside of every coastal city...but wow would that be predictable and exploitative!).

I'm at a loss of simple ideas that make the AI use of naval units more strategic and challenging.

The high seas are a more interesting place in PBEM games (perhaps MP games, too, I'm not sure). Yay!


Dominae

	14-11-2003 21:01									#100
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A lot of that rings true Dominae. I think historically (Civ history, not real history ) the problem has been one of the AI not appreciating naval power.

In Civ3, like with so many things the Civ AI has had trouble with in the past, the developers just nerfed the power of the navy. However then the problem becomes not the AI having too small a navy in relation to the human, but too large. One solution is to discourage the AI from building a navy, but, of course, at the expense of admitting naval power plays no real part in the game.

At the other end of the spectrum with more powerful naval units you have to make the AI good enough so that it wont just be another way for the human to gain a significant advantage. This, of course, is hard, as Dominae explained.

To the credit of developers they are trying to move away from the Civ3 vanilla 'easy but shallow' solution of simplifying the game to the point where the AI is not as disadvantaged as in earlier games. They have been doing so progressively since 1.07 vanilla. I hope they keep trying.

	14-11-2003 22:46									#101
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quote: Originally posted by dexters The arty stacks of doom were known exploits.

How so? Is it the human's fault that the AI doesn't know how to use artillery and hence must refrain from doing so itself? Hell, if an "exploit" is definied as doing anything the AI doesn't do then practically the whole way people play SP would be considered one.

	14-11-2003 23:14									#102
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I really think they should disallow enslavement of barbs by the mayans. Its ridiculously easy to farm barbs and provides an extreme ancient boost. I would rather force the player to go to early war (and trigger the GA) than sit back and pick off barbs for centuries with little consequence.

Not sure how difficult that would be, but since killing barbs won't trigger the GA, perhaps it wouldnt'be too difficult to add in a no enslavement flag.

	14-11-2003 23:21									#103
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OK, the purpose of this thread was to provide easy and commonly accepted fixes for the next patch. Let's see if we can find such a fix regarding bombardment units:

GROUND UNITS

Complaint: The new targeting priorities make large stacks of artillery, which the AI doesn't use, too powerful.

Potential solution #1: Return to the old system, where units, improvements, and population have a chance to get damaged. Besides addressing the main complaint (powerful artillery), advantages of this solution are a stonger AI, a more realistic effect, and a more balance. Disadvantages are that bombardment in the ancient age returns to being ineffective.

Potential solution #2: Keep the current system, but weaken the strength of artillery. Reduce the ROF of artillery to 1, or give an improvement bombard defense (like walls) so that it protects units from bombardment. This solution addresses the main complaint, without affecting other parts of the game.

Potential solution #3: Do nothing. It's fine as it is.

NAVAL UNITS

Complaint: The new targeting priorities, along with the AI's new tendency to bombard cities instead of tile improvements without following up with an invasion, make the AI navy less of a threat. Coastal Fortresses become even less useful, as they are easily destroyed and they are no longer needed to protect other city improvements.

Potential solution #1: Return to the old system, where units, improvements, and population have a chance to get damaged. This addresses both of the above complaints, but it makes naval invasions more difficult, which is probably not a desired effect for some of the official conquests.

Potential solution #2: Give naval units lethal land bombardment, and drastically increase the bombard defense of coastal fortesses. This addresses both of the above complaints, but it might make naval invasions too difficult for the defender to counter, especially the AI.

Potential solution #3: Make the AI do raids on tile improvements as before, and drastically increase the bombard defense of coastal fortesses. This also addresses both of the above complaints, but it is probably not a desired solution for the AI of some of the official conquests.

Potential solution #4: Make the AI bombard cities only if it also has land or amphibious units to attack the city in the same turn. Otherwise do raids on tile improvements as before. This also addresses both of the above complaints, but it might not be easy to implement.

AIR UNITS

Complaint: Lethal bombardment makes airpower too powerful. It's also unrealistic.

This is not (yet) a common complaint (sorry MZ ). Any time you have the ability to destroy the bombarding unit (with the new AA capabilities), lethal bombardment becomes less of a factor. It becomes more like ground combat where both units have a chance to get destroyed, and I think that's fine. Realism should take a back seat to gameplay in a game like civ.

Did I miss anything? Can we settle on one of the above solutions for each type of bombardment, for the purposes of this thread? Any other solutions?

Last edited by alexman on 15-11-2003 at 00:01

	14-11-2003 23:30									#104
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quote: Originally posted by kwpulliam1973 Governor Checkbox - Where should I assign extra citizens - Entertainment, Tax, Science, Police, Civil Engineer? - Seems simple enough - and lets you manage more effectivly without micromanaging

This would be really nice, but I'm certain it would not be a small fix. The governor settings are accessible to the human player only because the code is already there for the AI (that's why the governor is so stupid). The option you propose involves adding extra code just for the human, and I don't think this is going to happen.

	14-11-2003 23:36									#105
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel I really think they should disallow enslavement of barbs by the mayans. Its ridiculously easy to farm barbs and provides an extreme ancient boost.

I agree that the Mayas, with their traits and UU, are too powerful in the early game.

The enslavement ability of barbs does add flavor though, and I'm sure I'm not the only one here that would like to have it stay. Perhaps a cost increase for the unit is a better solution?

	14-11-2003 23:40									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen I for one was among those who advocated eliminating the hardcoded distinction between MGLs and SGLs. Same was also said about removing the hardcoded unlimited movement from railroads. Unfortunately, the answer was quite simple: those changes would require to much code change to be worthwhile.

Well if they found it too difficult to implement then, I'm sure it's out of the question for a patch. I'm removing the suggestion from the first post.

	14-11-2003 23:43									#107
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I don't agree that the new land bombardment needs to be 'solved'. I like it, as do many others as shown in a poll here.

I'm not sure that either of the solutions to naval bombardment are right either. How about the AI not bombard cities at all unless it has ground forces in the area or about to land?

	14-11-2003 23:51									#108
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Many of the others who voted that they like it (I was one of them), still think that artillery is too powerful. I voted for it because I like the way the new system works, certainly better than the old way.

Anyway, I updated my suggestions above. If we can't agree on something, I will not add any bombardment suggestions to the first post.

	14-11-2003 23:56									#109
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Well, bunkers to improve defence would be good. They are in the game already though. Civil Defence, but they come later.

Does your option 2 include the possibility of walls not being targeted by bombardment? That would be best.

	15-11-2003 00:00									#110
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Naval bombardment solution #4 should be amphibious forces or ground troops in the city radius....

Then it would get my vote.

	15-11-2003 00:03									#111
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Barracks should not be a requirement for Civil Defense. Currently, you can't build a Civil Defense if you own Sun Tzu's (free barracks) and a city did not actually construct a barracks in advance.

	15-11-2003 00:06									#112
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Does your option 2 include the possibility of walls not being targeted by bombardment? That would be best.

I didn't intend it to be the case but you can easily mod the game to be that way (although you won't get the walled city graphics). Walls are the only improvement that protects units from bombardment and you need on average three extra catapults to destroy walls before you can get to the units.

	15-11-2003 00:08									#113
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quote: Originally posted by lockstep Barracks should not be a requirement for Civil Defense. Currently, you can't build a Civil Defense if you own Sun Tzu's (free barracks) and a city did not actually construct a barracks in advance.

Whoa! Are you sure? That's a good one!

	15-11-2003 00:08									#114
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quote: Originally posted by lockstep Barracks should not be a requirement for Civil Defense. Currently, you can't build a Civil Defense if you own Sun Tzu's (free barracks) and a city did not actually construct a barracks in advance.

That's a bug if it is true.

	15-11-2003 00:13									#115
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither How about the AI not bombard cities at all unless it has ground forces in the area or about to land?

How about a BIG SIGN, with a BIG ARROW pointing to where the AI is going to invade??!!

It is probably better to have the AI risk losing shipping for no gain than to do that. I still say that the FEAR of the AI following up with a couple transports full of troops adds a lot to the game.

--
BTW, I would like for jungle and forest to give an added bombardment-defense bonus, from a realism perspective. Probably a lot more practical than giving units less chance of being SEEN at all in such terrain.

	15-11-2003 00:22									#116
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quote: about to land?

As in same turn.

	15-11-2003 00:27									#117
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Alexman -

Ground Units Bombardment - I would vote for Solution 2 as the referred simple solution but there is a problem with this solution, walls can't be built in cities above size 6, so this requires even more changes. - therefore I support do nothing (For Now) - It does need to be addressed in some manner.

Naval Bombardment - I perfer Option 4, but again, this may be too difficult to impliment simply.

Air Units - What Air units... I haven't seen an AI air unit yet, so No opinion.


Some Further simple suggestions -

On the Victory Status Screen - Have it display the difficulty settings. - The screen already exists. The data must be in the save file somewhere. I can't count the number of times I've started a game, and finished it 3 weeks later. In the interim I forget... what did I set the difficulty on. ( I float in the midrange difficulties depending on the challange I want and the map choices I made)

[Edit] - I also realize it shows when you load a game what difficulty you chose, but first you're assuming that I reload the game, and second we have a second difficulty slider now for AI agressiveness. This info should also be displayed

Secondly - The AI is bombing tile improvements - however, someone may want to tweak it ever so slightly....

See attached Picture - THere was a luxury in range, but the Dutch decided to bombard the tile with a worker on it (And no hitpoints) - They ended up damaging the marshland and destroying the road... Big Whoop. Either the AI was trying to hurt the worker, or it thought marsh was prime real-estate needing to be removed from use.

Thanks again for sompiling all this and getting an organized response.. organized.

Kevin P.

Attachment: bombardment choice.jpg
This has been downloaded 156 time(s).

	15-11-2003 01:01									#118
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Initial post updated.

I think we have found a commonly accepted solution (#4) to naval bombardment, even if it's not a particularly easy one.

	15-11-2003 01:17									#119
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quote: Originally posted by alexman Whoa! Are you sure? That's a good one!

I haven't tested it for myself - but look at this thread: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=101588.

I also remember that - about a year ago - a board member reported that he had modded the Military Academy so that it did not require a victorious army, but five barracks. He noticed he was unable to build the academy because he also owned Sun Tzu's.

	15-11-2003 01:33									#120
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I want to see Auto recon added. We used airplanes to scout the ocean not 4,000,000 ships. With an added auto recon air missions, more planes would be built and used, so the antiair units and fighters would be needed more.

Or make a new unit "PBY-16" and make it have no atk but have a range of 50. Allow it to have repeated recon missions with waypoints. Its upgrade would be F-111 and then SR-72. 8D