13-11-2003 22:01									#1
	Dilemma for environmentalists Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Environmentalists love to protect endangered species, but what do you do when the endangered species is being threatened by another endangered species? This is the dilemma facing environmentalists in Germany.

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BERLIN, Germany (Reuters) -- A protected species of bird is devouring rare fish in the German state of Bavaria and creating a dilemma for local officials who now want federal permission to kill birds that once appeared headed for extinction.

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http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/scienc...reut/index.html
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	13-11-2003 22:05									#2
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kill 'em all

	13-11-2003 22:05									#3
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... and let God sort them out.

	13-11-2003 22:08									#4
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or they can feed the birds with other fish until the endangered fish can sustain being preyed on.

	13-11-2003 22:11									#5
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Leave it. This is natural selection at work.

	13-11-2003 22:16									#6
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Maybe they should convince the birds to go vegan.

	13-11-2003 22:17									#7
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Yeah. It's healthier for them too, as long as they are sure to eat the right quantities of legunes, sprouts, and other delicious vegan treats.

	13-11-2003 22:23									#9
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What's the dilemma? Environmentalist groups aren't just kneejerk pro-animal (except PETA, perhaps). Controlled kills are supported by environmentalists who want to make sure balance is maintained in nature. I know in Maryland where I live, the culling of deer populations to prevent overcrowding was supported by environmental groups.

So long as it won't make the birds extinct, a control kill is fine.

	13-11-2003 22:25									#10
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murderer!

seriously cannot they capture a bunch of them, and breed them there? ( They probably can't. )

	13-11-2003 22:27									#11
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Given that over 95% of all species that existed have died out, I don't think nature is at all about "balance." Punctuated equilibrium, maybe, but not an interminable balance.

	13-11-2003 22:28									#12
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Come on JohnT...we humans know what is best for nature.

	13-11-2003 22:29									#13
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A lot of modern environmentalism definitely takes a "zoo" approach to the planet - Here's the people, here's the animals, let's keep them separate and please, do not feed.

	13-11-2003 22:32									#14
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And everything in nature should stay exactly as we see it today because that is the way nature intended it.

	13-11-2003 22:48									#15
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Given that over 95% of all species that existed have died out, I don't think nature is at all about "balance." Punctuated equilibrium, maybe, but not an interminable balance.

Side note: Gould's "punctuated equilibrium" is such a crock (not the theory itself, but his claim it was a challenge to Darwinism...pfff).

The rationale is one of conservation. It's not just a simple matter of the birds and fish. If the fish die out, it may negatively effect other species as well. If the fish are the primary source of food for these birds, allowing them to die would then kill the birds, so wildlife conservation has a vested interested in making sure there is some sort of "balance," artificial as it may be.

The bottomline is that I see no harm in practicing conservation, and controlled kills would be a part of that.

	13-11-2003 22:54									#16
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Unless an animal has a direct, beneficial use to humans - I don't see the point in conservation.

	13-11-2003 22:59									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov The rationale is one of conservation. It's not just a simple matter of the birds and fish. If the fish die out, it may negatively effect other species as well. If the fish are the primary source of food for these birds, allowing them to die would then kill the birds, so wildlife conservation has a vested interested in making sure there is some sort of "balance," artificial as it may be.

But "conservation" is a human conceit, one that is in direct opposition to what actually happens in the world - strong animals and plants act to the detriment of weak ones, even to the point of extinction. Odd, that: the placing of a human value on something to keep it "natural."

	13-11-2003 23:27									#18
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Anything's fine by me... As long as they don't get the bright idea to introduce some exotic species to balance the situation.

	14-11-2003 00:04									#19
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Gould's theory of punctuated equilibria is as accepted in evolutionary biology as phyletic gradualism. Most cases of speciation occur between these 2 extremes.

What's alarming now is that species are becoming extinct at a rate faster than what has been estimated maximum in the past. Because of the ecology of our biosphere, one or a few keystone species may start or facilitate trophic cascades in ecosystens' energy webs.

Humans are altering the selective pressures of many species and populations, and in some cases are artificially selecting in such a way that organisms with the artificially selected trait(s) disrupt the existing biological community structure.

	14-11-2003 00:06									#20
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT But "conservation" is a human conceit, one that is in direct opposition to what actually happens in the world - strong animals and plants act to the detriment of weak ones, even to the point of extinction. Odd, that: the placing of a human value on something to keep it "natural."

No argument with it being a human conceit--that's why I called it conservation. Environmentalism doesn't ascribe to letting nature run its course, it ascribes to maintaining the status quo and preventing human damage to the current environment.

	14-11-2003 00:07									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Neutrino Gould's theory of punctuated equilibria is as accepted in evolutionary biology as phyletic gradualism. Most cases of speciation occur between these 2 extremes.

Precisely. Punctuated equilibria is a part of Darwinism, not a challenge to it. Gould was disingenuous for the sake of publicity.

	14-11-2003 00:14									#22
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Hey Boris, long time no see... how's life?

I remember several years ago when the Fish and Wildlife guys killed a bunch stealhead in some lake up north of here. All the protestors went up to protest not realizing that they were killing 'em to protect endangered species. Stealhead were suppose to spawn and leave, but they didn't. Because of which there were too many fish in the pond for more salmon or whatever the other endangered fish was to spawn. There was actually no reduction in the amount of the fish (on either side) just no increase.

Since, they have been generating spawning basins down stream of this lake to give plenty of room for sex.

If the fish are too stupid to live, they will die.

	14-11-2003 00:22									#23
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT A lot of modern environmentalism definitely takes a "zoo" approach to the planet - Here's the people, here's the animals, let's keep them separate and please, do not feed.

That's pretend environmentalism. It's the same outlook on the world that's gotten us where we are today - we're the stewards/masters of the world and it's our job to manage it and do with it what we like. But forget managing ourselves - afterall, we have the whole world at our disposal.

	14-11-2003 00:25									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld That's pretend environmentalism. It's the same outlook on the world that's gotten us where we are today - we're the stewards/masters of the world and it's our job to manage it and do with it what we like. But forget managing ourselves - afterall, we have the whole world at our disposal.

Precisely. Which is why comments like this

quote: No argument with it being a human conceit--that's why I called it conservation. Environmentalism doesn't ascribe to letting nature run its course, it ascribes to maintaining the status quo and preventing human damage to the current environment.

follow the same assumptions as that expressed by Calistaga, but with an extra clause added to it: "the animals are here for our benefit, the poor things."

	14-11-2003 00:32									#25
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I hope you're not lumping me in with Boris.

I agree with the 'preventing human damage' part of his post, but the 'maintaining the status quo' part is contraditive to that.

	14-11-2003 00:34									#26
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I'm not. I'm just making sure that you and I are talking about the same attitude/assumptions.

	14-11-2003 01:11									#27
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT follow the same assumptions as that expressed by Calistaga, but with an extra clause added to it: "the animals are here for our benefit, the poor things."

wait...some of the things I said were jokes...which assumptions are you talking about?

	14-11-2003 02:08									#28
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It seems like natural selection at work that does not call for human intervention.

	14-11-2003 02:10									#29
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I was referring this one: "Unless an animal has a direct, beneficial use to humans - I don't see the point in conservation."

Being the straight man, I gotta take you at your word.

	14-11-2003 02:11									#30
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT I was referring this one: "Unless an animal has a direct, beneficial use to humans - I don't see the point in conservation." Being the straight man, I gotta take you at your word.

Actually I was serious when I said that...carry on.