25-05-2000 18:21									#1
	Priming cities to maximize trade bonuses during your turn. Full PM-box? Change here!

The art of maximizing money and beaker bonuses by shifting all your workers in both cities to max trade when caravans arrive has been an established strategy since the beginning of MP. It makes a big difference.

I would like people's opinion about how they would feel about not allowing it during a players turn. WHY? Because it really slows down the game. If a person is cashing even as few as 4 caravans on a turn, it can add a couple of minutes to each player. (some morons even change the city back during their turns so they don't forget)
I have no problem with priming cities but you should have to do it before your turn and take the possible production/food reduction hit for that turn. (and not be allowed to work people that would be unhappy).

The next new MP game that I play, I'm going to propose this rule. I know it's impossible to enforce, but if the guys I normally play with say they aren't doing it, I will believe them.

OPINIONS PLEASE.

RAH
Even the ferrets think this will greatly reduce the length of turns in the midgame.

	25-05-2000 18:43									#2
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But is it realistic? I mean, consider a city in economic decline, or flux at least - news of a large shipment of resources necessary to that city's economy would generate ecomonic activity in preparation of it's arrival. Either priming was designed into the game or it was an oversight or something. I dont think this game promotes trade enough - taking away a primary purpose for it wont add to the game IMO.

	25-05-2000 18:48									#3
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I'm not saying no priming. Just not during your turn. Do it the turn before it arrives. As you say, prepare for it. It is more unrealistic that you can work workers that would make the city go into revolt temporarily but not have it count against you because you switch it back before your next turn. But this is what I asked for, discussion.

RAH

	25-05-2000 18:59									#4
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From a realisim standpoint, I agree with Rah.

Ok, your workers start the turn in their normal place. As the turn continues, everybody moves to a different square to maximize trade... caravan/freight arrives, move everybody back. Yeah... realism...
Blah Blah Blah.

And from a time standpoint... not even close.
I was doing this in a game last night. At one point, I had to do it for 10 caravans. (hey, almost everybody we play with does it too) It added a good 5 minutes or more to my turn in addition to the normal time for moving the caravans. (my road system was not condusive for using the goto commands)

I see no problem with maximizing the city for trade, but I like the concept that you should do it before your turn, and then change it back after your turn is over. You get the pluses for doing it, and any disadvantage (loss production or food) that goes with it too.
It IS more realistic, and does save tons of time.
As Rah says, it is impossible to enforce, but trust is key for other tricks too

So I too will bring this game the next time I start a game.

	26-05-2000 09:44									#5
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I used it (with ally) without adding time.You just do your priming on other turns.It doesn't add much(if done properly).Later in the game there is plenty of time on other's turns.

ie:Before my turn-"hides for Rome,beads for Veji"

"Roger"

my turn comes up.caravans arrive.

"ok thats it"

ally resets as I finish moving other units.

end turn

I reset workers

	25-05-2000 22:37									#6
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Smash, you're right when dealing with an ally. But I've been in too many games where even allies were doing it during their turns. AAARRRGGGGG Or when they move right after each other and one wait for all the others cities to be FIXED.

As far as I'm concerned, this is just another case of doing city maintanance during your own turn and should be eliminated whenever possible.

RAH
I'm glad people are willing to discuss this.
I'm waiting for the great Eyes to come in and say we're nitpicking again.

	25-05-2000 23:17									#7
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Rah i do agree that the turns take forever in the midgame.

I also agree that the goto sucks

I must admit, i feel like an idiot though as i have never consciously moved my workers around to enhance trade

I now know why everyone takes so long.

I do agree that priming as you call it should be done on the other persons turn, like other maintenance (spelling) and diplomacy etc. Therefore i too will support this option the next time we play, and i have to agree that enforcing it will be on the honor system, so our group will have no problems with this......

I wonder what Xin has to say

	26-05-2000 00:14									#8
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if you are gonna see games thru to more modern ages then I think you just have to accept longer and longer turns.Civs get bigger.Armies get bigger.Operations get bigger.2x just adds to it.

I will never,ever play a 2x2 game again.Do you know how long it takes to move horses on roads and rivers?.They can move 12 squares.But I stray from topic.

I don't usually deliver more than 2 or 3 per turn as I don't want to waste beakers.That doesn't take any time to speak of.

Now if you are delivering 10+ per turn,that may take awhile.

I know I'm alone,but I never seem to enough time between turns.This is when alot of action takes place.Back room diplomacy,wheeling and dealing,city managing ETC.

Check.Re-Check.Check again

	26-05-2000 00:44									#9
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First several caravans are important, so I'd prime every city for them. Beyond a certain point (when the game takes longer) it should not be allowed to prime the cities during a player's turn. How about 500BC cut-off?

	26-05-2000 01:26									#10
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Why can't you prime them the before, in between turns? You should know their destinations a turn before.

I know every beaker is important. But if everyone is under the same handicap and it speeds up the turns. (and it certainly will, even if it's just a minute here or there. It all adds up)

RAH

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by rah (edited May 25, 2000).]</font>

	26-05-2000 04:37									#11
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I disagree here. This is a theme from several threads recently, that is, essentially, what do we to speed the game up. If that's the issue, address it directly and impose the game clock. In MP games, there is not likely to be a problem except at duels. And I don't think city priming is likely to come up in duels.

	26-05-2000 05:02									#12
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Actually I can do that without any problem. I just rehome the caravans to my trade city (which is always primed).

	26-05-2000 05:13									#13
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I thought you couldn't rehome caravans in MP??????

	26-05-2000 11:17									#14
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And how do you 'rehome' a caravan without actually moving it to the city? If you have to move every caravan to a trade city before sending it off, how is that saving any time?

As for other comments, I would play a game with this rule, but it would not speed it up much - the city management required for priming occurs during someone else's turn (although the sender is priming too). I learn of a caravan heading my way and I prime and unprime the city on my turn - I have asked people immediately preceding me to send the caravan early in their turn so I have time to switch back.

About the unhappiness, after trading, the city's disposition can change - an unhappy person may become content due to the trade. Therefore it is not illogical to have unhappy people content (working) in anticipation of the arriving resources. For you ex-druggies, consider how you felt without the drugs and after learning they were on the way and after they arrived (hmm...bad analogy?).

	26-05-2000 20:27									#15
	Increase Your PM Length

You guys don't know the 'GOTO' method? when a unit is blinking, if you want it to move to a square, just use the mouse to click on that square (if it is a city you can use goto command from the men. Actually any square will work but it is safe to use the target square) and drag it a little bit. The cursor will change to a 'Go'. Then when you click on the square the unit will start walking by itself.

	27-05-2000 11:51									#16
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I know the goto command, but how do you rehome a caravan without having to move it to the city? Or do you just move all caravans to that city before they are sent off on their trek?

And Ming, why would it be illegal or unethical to rehome caravans? When I have Shake's I try to rehome as many units as possible to that city.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by berzerker (edited May 27, 2000).]</font>

	27-05-2000 17:02									#17
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I didn't knew about priming feature until Ming told me few months ago.
So you guys actually telling people how to do it,then come out with some restrictions?
j/k

I agree with Xin Yu about this one. It's important in the beggining when research lasts 5-6 turns.
Later,when it takes 2-3 turns,several beakers-coins doesn't worth a pain of micromanaging. No matter which turn.

	28-05-2000 01:10									#18
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And *I* didn't know about priming your trade until this thread! What I don't know about this game would fill a book (and WHERE can I buy that book please?).

I'm beginning to understand why some people learn to do so well against the AI (endless time for detailed use of such micromanagement) but have such a hard time against human players (with set times for moves).

My opinion is that games should always have set times per move and that you can choose what you want to manage in that time.

	28-05-2000 03:44									#19
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After seeing some of the responses I'd like to clarify my thoughts. I agree with everyone that every beaker is important. All I'm trying to say is that if people maximize trade for a caravan, that they should be stuck with that city allocation for a turn. I'm not thrilled but not as concerned with sending to allies if it can be done without delaying the game. I consider it like doing city maintenance during your turn which everyone seems to agree shouldn't be done.

Bird, due to lag time problems I'd prefer not to use the timer. In the few games that I've used a timer it seems not to count the time at the beginning of your turn during the city update sequence as time against you. This seemed to encourage doing city maintanence then. (please correct me if i'm wrong about this) Also, When you do move a large army on an offensive you may need extra time. Since I love anything that encourages warfare, I'm against timers.

I've been in too many games were they stall due to all the caravan cashing. I don't mind the time it takes to move caravans because I agree it's a critical part of strategy. But temporary shifting workers without suffing any consequences from doing such and making the turns take sometimes twice as long is something that I would love to see minimized.

Xin, Can you really rehome caravans still? I thought that was fixed in one of the patches.
Since we agreed to not do it prior to the fix, I haven't tested it.

RAH

	30-05-2000 18:08									#20
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Berzerker... Rehoming caravans has been discussed (well, beat into the ground) often, and the general thought was that it was cheating. Considering that the Command menu allows you to rehome units, but not caravans, was the logical rules argument against it. You had to go into the city menu, click on the unit, and then rehome it to make it work for caravans. However, I really thought it was fixed in the MP patch so this couldn't be done.

As far as rehoming regular units, I don't think anybody has ever had a problem with that since it is a documented feature of the game

I also don't believe in playing games with time limits. Not because I don't play fast, but because it always seems I have to deal with some family crisis during the 4 to 5 hour session. If all players in the game do the best they can, that's all I ever ask. Some turns are just going to take longer. If you are making a massive attack, you should have time to complete it.
I do all city maintanence and diplomacy during other peoples turns.
But, this redoing a city to maximize trade during the turn really sucks. Again, I have no problem with people doing it... it's just WHEN they do it. If you want the max trade advantage from your cavarans, set it up between turns like other city maintanence.

It's really unfair, and totally against the spirit of the rules to do it during the turn, and it just takes too much damn time

	30-05-2000 23:55									#21
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Time limits.

	31-05-2000 01:25									#22
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I want to add that my concern with time limits is to protect against those players who will spend inordinate amounts of time perfecting their cities on their turns, who are busy with other interests while the game is underway, or just enjoy messing with other players' heads as a strategy.

I fully support giving most players all the time they need, because I know they won't abuse it. If one turn takes 2 minutes and the next one 5 minutes (whatever), I accept that as their temporary requirements. I seldom refuse a request for unlimited time.

It's just those few people who seek an advantage that concern me, and so I usually request a set time until I get to know their play habits. People who normally move along well get more time from me when they need it. I'll also add that beginners get more time, too.