14-11-2003 17:13									#1
	Incas are driving me NUTS! Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

My tiny pangea Aztec attempt at a quickie did not turn out to be so... the Incas have an ENDLESS supply of horsemen and UUs and they WILL NOT get away from me. We get peace and within a few turns (3-10 or so) they're back at war!

And I thought the Germans were agressive (they're on the other side of me) I thought I trimmed them early but they somehow just built Zeus thingy even though I can't see where that city is... I suspect I'm in trouble with zeus 'cause I see that ancient calvary lining up outside my borders but I can't get the INcas to behave long enough to sort out Germany...

I didn't adjust the agression level and didn't really notice what the INcas are, but it seems as though they are more agressive than Germany??? (They do have a source of Iron, so it's not resource greed either, and they ALWAYS beeline to my capital which has the pyramids and another stupid wonder (prebuild for artemis failed so I got stuck with Great Wall... whoo-hoo)

	14-11-2003 17:37									#2
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Playing as Aztecs on the MEsoamerica scenario I expanded as far as the isthmus in central america and lined up a load of defensive units. Eventually everyone was at war with me and kept throwing unit after unit. Eventually I was getting leader after leader and creating armies.

Pity military leaders no longer rush wonders as i would have had a culture victory easy!

	14-11-2003 17:41									#3
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If things are as bad as you say, the Great Wall may well turn out to be worthwhile after all.

	14-11-2003 18:15									#4
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quote: Originally posted by redstar1 Playing as Aztecs on the MEsoamerica scenario I expanded as far as the isthmus in central america and lined up a load of defensive units. Eventually everyone was at war with me and kept throwing unit after unit. Eventually I was getting leader after leader and creating armies. Pity military leaders no longer rush wonders as i would have had a culture victory easy!

If I got GLs it wouldn't be as bad... but I don't even get them. Winning lots of elite battles and nothing. Got one SGL for something and built the pyramids (snatched it from the incas so perhaps that's why they're upset?) I'm hoping to get 3 GL, make 3 armies and eliminate the incas. But right now all I can build is military units 'cause I lose a couple a turn and with only 5 cities, it's pretty tough. And this is only monarch! I just don't get it.

And what's up with the incas moving 2 loose workers, no escort, into my lands when we're at war? Are they trying to lure me out of my cities or something? Didn't matter, sent a horseman to collect them and returned home, no damage... weird that.

	14-11-2003 21:36									#5
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Thsoe 2 unguarded workers are building roads to make conquests of your lands easier. I'm fairly sure. Or just preparing to build a city there. I saw the Aztecs doing it to me, when I played as the Incas, twice.

From the other side of the fence - playing as the Incas - the Aztecs are damn agressive. I mean it. Real nasty little bastards. Much worse than in PTW/Civ3. And yes, they had a relatively well-coordinated strategy with plenty of horsemen and UUs.

I think the AI is just better are war now, period, and more willing to wage it.

Then again, my computer's been broken for a week and I haven't been able to play...

	14-11-2003 21:48									#6
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With only 5 cities, you may want to try mobilization. Set all to making war machines.

	14-11-2003 23:19									#7
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 With only 5 cities, you may want to try mobilization. Set all to making war machines.

I know, I'll probably hear rude comments about it from someone, but I have never actually used mobilization. I have seen it as an option but never really figured out when or how to use it, or what it does... I guess I really should read the civpedia or something, but I never even think of it... but if it'll allow me to crank out some troops and kill incas, I'm all for it. Do I need a specific tech for it first?

	14-11-2003 23:25									#8
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I was under the impression that mobilization required nationalism (the tech), which is why vmxa1's comment strikes me as a bit odd... but maybe I'm wrong.

Mobilization can be very useful but if your war drags on past the point you want it to, it can be very irritating. It's definitely worth trying, especially under Monarchy or Communism or some such government. It's good for those late-game wars when you want to crush an opponent with a beefy military in a few turns.

Back to the Incas... anything think the Chasqui scout is overpriced? I'm of the opinion that it is. The movement is nice, that's for sure... I like the Chasqui scout. But I'll hardly build more than a few.

If the Chasqui is going to be as pricey as it is, you'd think the Incas would at least be allowed to build normal scouts as well...

	14-11-2003 23:33									#9
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Yes, you need nationalism for mobilization.

I use mobilization when a war has gone terribly wrong, and I've been stealing "garrison troops" from border towns away from the main fight. Invariably, another AI will declare war and threaten those previously safe cities.

The nervousness sets in, my irritation level rises and my domestic advisor just sits across the table shaking her head at me. Sometimes I don't know if I'm imagining it or not, but I think the Science and Cultural advisors are talking about me...

	15-11-2003 00:59									#10
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Sigh... since I'm just researching chivalry now, it'll be awhile before I can "mobilize". But, then again, the knights should help kick some inca butt!

And I'm still in despotism 'cause I can't stop being at war long enough to be able to afford a few turns of anarchy. If I did that now, at this rate of war, I'd run out of defenders in 3 turns and the incas would overrun my lands!

And the inca must have lots of money 'cause they are sending their UU in as attackers. Or perhaps they're trying to pillage my ore supply with them? Who knows but there are a lot of them around...

	15-11-2003 01:15									#11
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Hmmm. Interesting. How are the Incas using their Chasquis? Are they using them well, or are they just fodder?

In my brief war (before the computer broke) AS the Incas against the Aztecs, I was impressed, relatively speaking, with Aztec tactics... nothing to compare with human tactics, of course, but still, a marked improvement from PTW. As I had opted for a "peaceful" route, 2 of my cities were destroyed and more were threatened. I sure wasn't expecting that...

	15-11-2003 01:36									#12
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They're easy to kill so it's hard to say. They all beeline for my capital which happens to be where my only iron supply is so no way of knowing if they are being dumb or if they're trying to get to my iron. They don't "attack" me, but I kill them before they get to whereever they're going so perhaps they intend to attack if I let them live. The horsemen attack me, but occasionally they get distracted and head off toward some slave workers.

Silly incas, they're not going to get any of their slaves back!

	15-11-2003 01:44									#13
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I bet there's a thread about this already someplace else (whether or not the AI is better at war now).

The concept of the AI targeting a stategic resource: I like it. I hope that's the case.

Even if they're just targetting your capital, that's still good.

Hmmm, too bad my computer is down.

Anyone agree/disagree that the Chasqui is overpriced?

	15-11-2003 23:27									#14
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There does seem to be a mixture of talk about the epic game and the mesoamerican conquest.

In the Epic game, Nationalization is needed for anybody to mobilize. The effects of mobilization are that it allows every title producing a shield already to produce an additional one when it's producing a military unit or improvement, but any new builds must be military units or improvements. (Existing peaceful builds can stay as is [not getting the bonus] unless you switch them.) You also can't switch back, but will instead automaticaly demobilize when you sign a peace treaty. Yes, you can mobilize while at peace if your planning a war, but then you'd have to declare war on someone just to be able to sign a peace treaty to demobilze. The effects of mobilization [along with GA] is why if you need some grassland irrigated for food growth reasons and are already working all grassland shields, the tiles you pick to irrigate should be grassland shields while you mine grasslands without shields.

As for the Mesoamerican conquest, there might be a tech allowing it and then there might not be; scan thru the techs to determine.

	16-11-2003 01:27									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth Anyone agree/disagree that the Chasqui is overpriced?

Surely, you have my vote that the Chasqui overpriced

I mean, why making the Chasqui so expensive???.

Chasquis were trained and healty men that could run a long of kilometers, to deliver some messages or goods to the Inca. They weren't warriors, they never had a weapon like the one is showed in the game.

So, because this, the Chasqui must NOT be the Inca UU. I think an slinger is quite better than the Chasqui. the Chasqui, if you want, could be an flavor unit for the Inca, but not the UU.

So, I beg Firaxis reconsider this, a Slinger of a Macan man cuold be much better than a Chasqui for UU.

Thanks.

The Slayer.

	16-11-2003 04:08									#16
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But a slinger would just overlap with Archers - we already have the bowman and the javelin thrower now...

	16-11-2003 05:32									#17
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In that case, the Spearman is also overlapped as you say. We have Spearman, Numidian Merc., Hoplite and the Impi.

So, an extra archer unit mustn't be a problm, I think

	17-11-2003 20:21									#18
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The problem is triggering the GA with a UU... I would personally keep the Chasqui Scout the same price as a normal scout, take away it's attack and defense values and give it the ability to treat hills/mountains as grassland. Of course, once could compromise: keep the Chasqui as it is and halve the price.

	17-11-2003 21:31									#19
	Re: Incas are driving me NUTS! Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by mimi My tiny pangea Aztec attempt at a quickie did not turn out to be so... the Incas have an ENDLESS supply of horsemen and UUs and they WILL NOT get away from me.

Those Inca's only want ONE thing don't they. It's their raging hormones. Just don't pay attention to them. They are looking for a reaction from you - good or bad. If they offer to buy you a drink just ignore them and they'll go hit on some other civ...

	17-11-2003 22:51									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth The problem is triggering the GA with a UU... I would personally keep the Chasqui Scout the same price as a normal scout, take away it's attack and defense values and give it the ability to treat hills/mountains as grassland. Of course, once could compromise: keep the Chasqui as it is and halve the price.

Another option is to keep the price and stats the same but add in the "enslave" ability.

	17-11-2003 22:54									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Thoth Another option is to keep the price and stats the same but add in the "enslave" ability.

That would be interesting.

I personally don't see why a lot more units don't have the enslave ability...

	20-11-2003 02:48									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Feephi Those Inca's only want ONE thing don't they. It's their raging hormones. Just don't pay attention to them. They are looking for a reaction from you - good or bad. If they offer to buy you a drink just ignore them and they'll go hit on some other civ...

you strike again Feephi... very amusing. I also ignore those Inca ho's

	20-11-2003 02:57									#23
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I saw those little Incas breed like crazy in a game I played as the Romans last night... seriously... I've never seen an AI REX like that.

	20-11-2003 03:18									#24
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quote: Originally posted by The Slayer In that case, the Spearman is also overlapped as you say. We have Spearman, Numidian Merc., Hoplite and the Impi. So, an extra archer unit mustn't be a problm, I think

Point taken, but what would you do with it? 2/1/2 would be the same as a horseman, 2/2/1 would be the same as Bowmen, 2/2/1 enslave would be the same as javelins. Perhaps 3/1/1 could be interesting, perhaps with an enslave...hmmm...

	20-11-2003 03:19									#25
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...that would probably be too powerful for that stage in the game and completely undermine swordsmen...

	20-11-2003 03:37									#26
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So, don't give swordmens to the Incas. I live here and I have never read in a book that the Incas used an Sword before

	20-11-2003 04:13									#27
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A 3/1/1 archer would not be too powerful at all! It would be a godsend, however. Like longbowmen, except earlier in the game. In other words, a swordsman with a lower defense that does not require iron.

Perhaps no enslavement, though. That might overpower it a little.