15-11-2003 00:09									#31
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Cruddy The UK experience of tax cuts over many years has changed. To start with they were very popular. When people realized that the govt wasn't maintaining public services and was selling everything to the highest bidder, the public decided that the govt spending the money was the best bet. Else what do we vote for? For politicians who manage nothing, just sell off govt run services? I suspect the US experience will be similar, with people getting disillusioned about the idea.

Well, maybe you brits are already hopelessly dependent on government programs.

To be honest, I want policians to manage as little as possible, and I want individual citizens to take as much initiative as possible. In America, we value initiative over dependency.

I trust politians less with my money than corporate CEOs. At least many corporate CEOs have a major stake in their own companies, and thus they work hard to get a decent return on investment. Politicians, especially the likes of Gray Davis of California, don't care a **** about whether public's money gets wasted. The more you give, the more they are going to waste.

Of course, there are some services only a government can perform, such as national defense, law enforcement, jurisdiction, monetary policy, corporate oversight, and social security. But efficiencies of these services are described as "appalling" to the best.

	15-11-2003 00:11									#32
	Increase the size of your Attachments

hmm... 1% of Americans getting an average of $40k per family to "invest" or healthcare for everyone plus change...

	15-11-2003 00:24									#33
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Defiant In any event, we all know the President, Slick Willy or Bush have little to do with the economy, that is mostly business's and Greenspan.

President dumbshit talked down the ecnoomy, ala Jimmy Carter's "national malaise." His tax cuts weren't targetted towards stimulating spending, which increases demand, but towards the investor class, which increases supply. We've got more than enough supply. We need more demand.

Normally, a President doesn't have that much effect on the economy, (at least as far as Repugs are concerned since the ecnoomy under the last three Repug prez' hasn't been that great, while under the last Dum prez, it was pretty good), but this Prez has had an extremely negative effect on his country. There is a reason why he's gonna go down as the worst Prez in history.

	15-11-2003 00:24									#34
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless I trust politians less with my money than corporate CEOs

Then you are a complete fool.

	15-11-2003 00:26									#35
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara What I'm saying is, that isn't necessarily true. Putting the money in the bank is only indirectly spending if the bank can invest the money.

But I thought they were investing it in overseas sweatshops designed specifically to exploit the poor? Isn't that the point of your "where are American jobs going" thread a few days ago?

	15-11-2003 00:28									#36
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by JohnT But I thought they were investing it in overseas sweatshops designed specifically to exploit the poor? Isn't that the point of your "where are American jobs going" thread a few days ago?

No.

	15-11-2003 00:32									#37
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Then you are a complete fool.

Did you read my post at all? I said there are still MANY CEOs who have a major stakes in their own companies and thus in your investments. But there are no politicans who have a stake in your money.

I would trust Warren Buffet, Jerry Yang, Sergei Brin, Scott McNealy, and Bill Gates far more with my money than the forked-tongued snakes crawling in the US Congress and California State assembly.

	15-11-2003 00:36									#38
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Then you are a complete fool.

You know, I'm a damned fool for getting into these threads as people tend to ignore every single bit of actual experience that I've had in my life so they can debate the latest "What if..." scenario that has no relation at all as to how the real world works. However, I did write something in a thread a while back that bears on this exchange and, if I may, I'd like to re-post it:

quote: I am President of two companies with a total of 8 employees (including myself) and a fair number of contractors. My 8 employees have a total of 28 family members depending upon them for some portion of their incomes (in a couple of cases, the only portion). It is my responsibility to make sure that payroll is met, that new clients are developed, that invoices are paid, etc. It is my goal to increase our business so that in time I will be responsible for hundreds of employees and their families, rather than the dozens I am today. So do I feel guilty? Hell no: I'm already doing my share.

I feel better now. You may keep ignoring me.

	15-11-2003 01:08									#39
	Get a bigger avatar today!

"Normally, a President doesn't have that much effect on the economy, (at least as far as Repugs are concerned since the ecnoomy under the last three Repug prez' hasn't been that great, while under the last Dum prez, it was pretty good), but this Prez has had an extremely negative effect on his country. There is a reason why he's gonna go down as the worst Prez in history."

Che, that is just flat out wrong, first in March 2001 the market crashed then in September the other crash and then finally some corporate CEO's got their lunch, all factors of which killed any faith and trust into our economy, of which Bush had no or little control, that's plain and simple. His tax cuts were used to stimulate the economy which they have done, so far. Even if some used it to re-invest, great, lets create some real substance jobs, not like in the 90's .com rage which really hurt us. I think your personal bias of the man is hindering your intellectual thought of this economy and what he is trying to do.

	15-11-2003 01:13									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by JohnT I feel better now. You may keep ignoring me.

Enron, Worldcom, Global Crrossing, Tyco, Authur Anderson, Harken . . .

	15-11-2003 01:18									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Enron, Worldcom, Global Crrossing, Tyco, Authur Anderson, Harken . . .

But I repeat myself...

Since we're spewing names at random, how about these

Pol Pot, Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Amin

Looks like the body count is again heavily on your side - as a matter of fact, I can't find anything (I'm sure you'll help) that explicitly states that the companies you mentioned murdered a single person, much less millions. How about my list - any murderers there?

	15-11-2003 01:20									#42
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Defiant I think your personal bias of the man is hindering your intellectual thought of this economy and what he is trying to do.

The reverse is true. This economy and what he is trying to do have influenced my personal bias of this man. I used to think he was gonna be like his father or Ronnie. I wouldn't like it, but I could live with it. But he's gone far beyond them.

This guy makes me fear for the future of the country. He is systematically ripping apart those aspects of the Federal government which protect us from predatory businesses, throwing us into massive debt, trying to keep the American people from finding out what they're doing behind closed doors, punishing whistleblowers, packing the court with evangalist Christian activists, and kicking the poor in the shins. He is Damien.

	15-11-2003 01:21									#43
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by JohnT Amin

Idi Amin wasn't a socialist or a communist.


and answer my pm!

	15-11-2003 01:31									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Idi Amin wasn't a socialist or a communist. and answer my pm!

I did. I sent you an email about a 1/2 hour ago at your bellsouth address.

	15-11-2003 01:32									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara This guy makes me fear for the future of the country. He is systematically ripping apart those aspects of the Federal government which protect us from predatory businesses, throwing us into massive debt, trying to keep the American people from finding out what they're doing behind closed doors, punishing whistleblowers, packing the court with evangalist Christian activists, and kicking the poor in the shins. He is Damien.

OK, Che, now I have to ask you what you are drinking. Just yesterday didn't *his* federal judges just strip the Alabama Chief Justice because he wouldn't remove the 10 commandments from the court building. Isn't he the first one to start pushing for laws against guys like Enron, I agree the penalties are not strong enough but didn't he push for those and for the poor maybe he is trying to quit giving the handouts and trying to get jobs for them, we have conditioned some people(i see here at work) to leech off the system not help it and I am tried of seeing it.

	15-11-2003 01:37									#46
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Idi Amin wasn't a socialist or a communist.

Yeah, you're right. I was thinking of Robert Mugabe. My list is now dramatically improved.

	15-11-2003 01:38									#47
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Defiant OK, Che, now I have to ask you what you are drinking.

Water, 8 8oz glasses a day.

quote: Just yesterday didn't *his* federal judges just strip the Alabama Chief Justice because he wouldn't remove the 10 commandments from the court building.

IIRC, it was his fellow Alabama Supremems who stripped him. Federal coutrs would have no authority to do so.

quote: Isn't he the first one to start pushing for laws against guys like Enron.

No, he did not, until it was clear that something was going to be passed. Then he got invloved so that it could be diluted. Bush actually does a lot of that. Sits on legislation, then takes all the credit when it gets passed later.

quote: for the poor maybe he is trying to quit giving the handouts and trying to get jobs for them,

So why make it harder for them to get job training or get an education?

	15-11-2003 01:41									#48
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by JohnT Yeah, you're right. I was thinking of Robert Mugabe. My list is now dramatically improved.

Hey, Mugabe's not a mass murderer, even if he is a murderer and thug. And he's certainly not cannibal.

	15-11-2003 01:52									#49
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: Originally posted by Defiant quote: Just yesterday didn't *his* federal judges just strip the Alabama Chief Justice because he wouldn't remove the 10 commandments from the court building. quote: IIRC, it was his fellow Alabama Supremems who stripped him. Federal coutrs would have no authority to do so. You're right, I meant the Fed told him to take out the 10 commandments which led to his dismisal. [q]Isn't he the first one to start pushing for laws against guys like Enron. quote: No, he did not, until it was clear that something was going to be passed. Then he got invloved so that it could be diluted. Bush actually does a lot of that. Sits on legislation, then takes all the credit when it gets passed later. That's not the way I remember it, but we will leave it at that because without any proof, neither of us will convince the other. [q]for the poor maybe he is trying to quit giving the handouts and trying to get jobs for them, So why make it harder for them to get job training or get an education?

How do you know it is harder, I live in a University town and have one daughter in class, she tells me about a lot of kids with assisstance from the feds and it ticks her off a little because we have to pay full boat.

	15-11-2003 01:54									#50
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Sorry about that major screwup of the quoting system, che. Hope you can read it.

	15-11-2003 01:59									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Japher And rich people are more likely to invest "additional" monies, than are middle class or poor people. The goal of the tax cut is to stimulate the economy by creating jobs and investing in buisnesses, not to give a blue collar worker a vacation, a new car, or the like. Then again, it isn't to give a rich guy that new jet either.

You missed the part where it said that consumer spending is 70% of total spending. Consumer spending is what stimulates the economy not business spending which isn't sh1t comparably.

	15-11-2003 02:02									#52
	Re: Hopefully Some Good Economic News That Will Last Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Defiant The Treasury Department estimates it will collect $100 billion less in taxes in the first half of 2004 than it would have without the tax cut. That reflects not only the higher refunds but also reduced tax payments by those who don't get refunds.

$100 billion is probably not significant, but maybe.

	15-11-2003 02:08									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Welcome back Kid

Let me ask, where does the consumer get the money they are spending?

Also note, that in a latter post that I suggested alternatives to the tax cut that would encourage consumer spending. Thus, I am aware that consumer spending does stimulate the economy, but I also see that buisness spending increases the economy as well.

	15-11-2003 02:12									#54
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Let me ask, where does the consumer get the money they are spending?

Wait, Kid - I know this one!
[nervous schoolboy]

quote: The businesses are taking a 30% skim off the back of the consumers merely for their existence. If we got rid of the businesses, everybody would be both 30% richer and "equal."

How'd I do?

[/nervous schoolboy]

	15-11-2003 02:17									#55
	Tired of ads?

Nobody work, Everybody gets paid!!!

For what reason, I have no idea... Isn't communism grand?

	15-11-2003 02:20									#56
	Got spare money?

quote: No, no! Everybody work, nobody gets paid, we just beg, borrow, and share. Simple is as simple does, right?

How'm I doin', Mr Kid?

	15-11-2003 02:21									#57
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Japher Welcome back Kid Let me ask, where does the consumer get the money they are spending? Also note, that in a latter post that I suggested alternatives to the tax cut that would encourage consumer spending. Thus, I am aware that consumer spending does stimulate the economy, but I also see that buisness spending increases the economy as well.

The size of the component is what matters. Adding $100 billion to consumer spending is certainly possible. In fact, adding $1000 billion to consumer spending may be possibel. But since business spending is such a small component to total spending it isn't realistic to add $100 billion to it in the short run.

Look at your personal spending. What do you spend the most money on? What do you spend the least money on? If your total spending increases what do you think will contribute to that increase, the item that you spend the most on or the item that you spend the least on?

	15-11-2003 02:28									#58
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Buisness spending generates jobs, other sources of income, and an increase in GDP just the same as consumer spending does if not more.

Consumer Spending -> Buisness Earnings -> Buisness Spending -> Consumer Earnings -> Consumer Spending

No matter which way you look at it. Increase one you increase all. Why increase one over the other? Does it matter?

	15-11-2003 02:32									#59
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Look at your personal spending. What do you spend the most money on? What do you spend the least money on?

Consumer goods, which are made by a buisness.

quote: If your total spending increases what do you think will contribute to that increase, the item that you spend the most on or the item that you spend the least on?

I don't understand the question. Spending doesn't contribute to an increase in spending... that makes no sense at all.

Total spending is increasing, so I guess Bush's tax cut worked to stimulate the economy. But, by the time we realize that another prez will have come a long (probably a democrat) and everyone will say that it was his/her doing, they'll F' things up, and another repub will have to come back in and clean up the mess... It's a sticky little cycle, each turn of it receives the same arguments...

	15-11-2003 02:33									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Japher Buisness spending generates jobs, other sources of income, and an increase in GDP just the same as consumer spending does if not more. Consumer Spending -> Buisness Earnings -> Buisness Spending -> Consumer Earnings -> Consumer Spending No matter which way you look at it. Increase one you increase all. Why increase one over the other? Does it matter?

The problem with your logic is that you assume that business will spend money regardless of how much consumers are spending. Businesses only increase their spending with optimistic expectations of consumer spending or after they see that consumers are spending more. The opposite is not true. Consumers spending decisions are not dependent on business spending decisions.