15-11-2003 02:38									#61
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So, Kid, you are saying the demand fuels supply?

Or more precisely, that consumer spending fuels buisness spending?

So, where are these consumers getting their money to spend? What are they spending money on?

A: They are getting their money from a job (buisness spending), and they are spending it on a good or service that is made by a buisness.

I don't think I over looked anything. When times are bad and you want to increase spending you give the tax cuts to those are more likely to spend, which is exactly what Bush did.

	15-11-2003 02:40									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Consumer goods, which are made by a buisness.

Punt

quote: Originally posted by Japher I don't understand the question. Spending doesn't contribute to an increase in spending... that makes no sense at all.

Why cut the taxes then silly?

Your understanding of economics is lacking here. Spending increases one or more peoples incomes and those people spend money in turn. Injecting spending in the economy stimulates other spending with what Keynes called a multiplier effect.

quote: Originally posted by Japher Total spending is increasing, so I guess Bush's tax cut worked to stimulate the economy.

And it is because consumer spending has increased. The question is whether is will keep increasing. Consumer debt is overwhelming though because the people in debt didn't get much of a tax cut. This $100 billion will help, but not by much probably.

	15-11-2003 02:41									#63
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I read somewhere that the Bush tax cut doesnt actually give anyone the 'average.' in other words, you either get a lot more than the average or a lot less. I would be interested in knowning the median AND the mode of the tax cut.

	15-11-2003 02:42									#64
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Of course, you probably cannot get that info since it would reveal that crock of **** that is this tax cut.

	15-11-2003 02:45									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia Of course, you probably cannot get that info since it would reveal that crock of **** that is this tax cut.

The IRS publishes such reports repeatedly and puts them on the web. If you bother to look that is. However, you're going to have to wait until next year to verify that this is so because the article is based upon next years projected tax take.

	15-11-2003 02:46									#66
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How convenient

	15-11-2003 02:48									#67
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Since you were probably too lazy to go back and read it heres the post of mine I refered you to:

quote: Personally, I would of liked to have seen a drop in other taxes other than income taxes; i.e. sales tax, luxury taxes, capital gains taxes. I think that type of approach would of encouraged people to spend more, at least more than just giving them more money

See, no real argument. I just think that there are many ways to skin a cat, so to speak.

quote: Your understanding of economics is lacking here.

Oh, it's lacking in a lot of places. Yet I make up for it in being good at making and earning money. I have no real reason to play corporate games.


Lawrence: You can get the skinny on the tax cut. Unlike in most countries, here, many things are public, especially if it has to do with the economy. In general the tax cut will benefit wealth people (those who make way more than me) and those with kids (though much less than those with money)... There are a lot of little tid-bits here and there, that reward the investor, spender, and family man, while ignoring the saver, loner, or greedy... But don't take it from me, everyone has their own opinion on it.

	15-11-2003 02:48									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Japher I don't think I over looked anything. When times are bad and you want to increase spending you give the tax cuts to those are more likely to spend,

You got it

quote: Originally posted by Japher which is exactly what Bush did.

No, he didn't. To stimulate the economy ultimately what you have to do is decrease the savings rate. Deficits require that the government sell bonds. If you give tax cuts to the wealthy the tendency is for them to increase their savings because of the new demand for money. It's circular. It you cut taxes for the lower income groups or increase spending you increase the demand for money but you don't increase the supply because the lower income groups get less comparable utility from savings. That is, they need to spend the money that they recieve more than wealthier people would need to spend the money that they would recieve from a tax cut.

	15-11-2003 02:52									#69
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Well, why don't you look up last years data and see if what you says bear true? Given that the thrust of the article is that this tax cut includes 8,000,000 more people than last years (remember that debate a few months back?), what is true for this tax cut ought to be even more so for the last one, don't you think?

[aside]

Is there anybody here who knows how to do real world research that doesn't involve a textbook?

[/aside]

	15-11-2003 02:52									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Oh, it's lacking in a lot of places. Yet I make up for it in being good at making and earning money. I have no real reason to play corporate games.

You can make the money your making and understand economics better by listening to me more instead of arguing with me all the time.

	15-11-2003 02:55									#71
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quote: You can make the money your making and understand economics better by listening to me more instead of arguing with me all the time.

The commies are trying to take over my mind!!!

JohnT: The internet has a lot of information on it, you know it's not just for porn and video games anymore... sad as it may sound. What exactly are you looking for?

	15-11-2003 02:59									#72
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT [aside] Is there anybody here who knows how to do real world research that doesn't involve a textbook? [/aside]

Yes, but the one and only time I did it it was more or less ignored, and I decided I would never waste that much time again for a debate on Apolyton.

	15-11-2003 03:07									#73
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Here is refund data for the past 5 years. Do note that the Bush FY 2002 refund was but 5 billion larger in total size than the Clinton "Let's buy Al Gore a White House Job with Tax Policy Changes" Tax Cut in 2001.

I know, I know - I can hear the whine - "but Corporations got bigger tax refunds and people got fewer under Bush." Unemployment, business losses, and yes, bias in the tax cuts towards businesses all helped to create the gain in corporate refunds and the losses in personal - but the first 2 quarters of 2003 show individuals gaining serious momentum again.

	15-11-2003 03:10									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Japher The commies are trying to take over my mind!!! JohnT: The internet has a lot of information on it, you know it's not just for porn and video games anymore... sad as it may sound. What exactly are you looking for?

No, you misunderstood: I'm the one pointing to real world data, while LoA doesn't bother in his attempts to make his argument. The above post of mine does nothing to refute him, but it does show that both parties are comfortable playing tax politics, has been for a long time, and yet the Republic still stands.

	15-11-2003 03:14									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You can make the money your making and understand economics better by listening to me more instead of arguing with me all the time.

I actually doubt that.

	17-11-2003 20:38									#76
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yes, but the one and only time I did it it was more or less ignored, and I decided I would never waste that much time again for a debate on Apolyton.

Good idea Che. Look at JohnT's last post. You can waste a lot of time on some people.