15-11-2003 02:32									#1
	Poll - GA Issue Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Simple yes or no to the following:

If/when the opportunity presents itself for us to trigger our GA via attacking with a Numidian (like last turn, when the decision was made not to use numidians), should we do it?

The basic issues have been discussed in the other thread ("if not now with our UU, when and how, exactly?" versus "GA while REXing like bunnies? Not at all optimal!").

So vote, Apolytoners.

-Arrian

	15-11-2003 04:08									#2
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As MoI, I can tell you that we can either REX like bunnies OR build things over the next 20 turns.

Dom would say that we can do both, but Irrigating certain tiles to provide the extra food balance to offset the faster builds of the GA. The thing is, that all takes time and planning and workers (which mostly are buried in the jungle right now, clearing them).

Given around 40 turns, I CAN have all of the REXing done, the Palace moved (or just about to move) and our new core set up. We will have no problem with triggering our GA, and that extra time will be better for us in the long run.

I say that we CAN wait, not that we need the GA at this point in time.

The Original plan was to do war production AND Improvements, but now we are going into a very hight REX rate (faster than you can shake a settler at) and having that GA during that time would definately NOT be optimal.

Our Keywords from the start, with all of the really nice land that we were given, has been efficiency (economic & planning), patience and determination to a final goal.

Don't let our long term plans get muddled by tring to do too many things at once. If we do that, with what we know of the other civs, then we will definately lose, atleast economically.

Vote for delaying the GA, I know I can give it to you relatively soon. And then there is still CFC that might be a problem.

MoI E_T

	15-11-2003 04:17									#3
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Well, if I have to listen to anyones advice on this it is going to be E_T and Dominae, and they both have very good arguements!

	15-11-2003 05:26									#4
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quote: Originally posted by E_T As MoI, I can tell you that we can either REX like bunnies OR build things over the next 20 turns. Dom would say that we can do both, but Irrigating certain tiles to provide the extra food balance to offset the faster builds of the GA. The thing is, that all takes time and planning and workers (which mostly are buried in the jungle right now, clearing them). Given around 40 turns, I CAN have all of the REXing done, the Palace moved (or just about to move) and our new core set up. We will have no problem with triggering our GA, and that extra time will be better for us in the long run. I say that we CAN wait, not that we need the GA at this point in time. The Original plan was to do war production AND Improvements, but now we are going into a very hight REX rate (faster than you can shake a settler at) and having that GA during that time would definately NOT be optimal. Our Keywords from the start, with all of the really nice land that we were given, has been efficiency (economic & planning), patience and determination to a final goal. Don't let our long term plans get muddled by tring to do too many things at once. If we do that, with what we know of the other civs, then we will definately lose, atleast economically. Vote for delaying the GA, I know I can give it to you relatively soon. And then there is still CFC that might be a problem. MoI E_T

E_T you have convinced me. Let's delay our GA.

	15-11-2003 05:43									#5
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quote: Originally posted by E_T Vote for delaying the GA, I know I can give it to you relatively soon. MoI E_T

E_T, how do you trigger the GA later, through future War/Wonder building ? Can you please provide details. Thanks.

	15-11-2003 09:01									#6
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Definitely delay.

Unfortunately, this answer does not solve anything for E_T (to whom it is most important), because GCA may trigger our GA any turn now. But given the opportunity to trigger it ourselves, I think we should not.

quote: The Original plan was to do war production AND Improvements, but now we are going into a very hight REX rate (faster than you can shake a settler at)

For those of you who are not aware, this involves joining our Workers back into cities to keep a steady supply of pop available for Settler production. As I've already mentioned to E_T (sorry E_T for bringing this up again!), this is highly inefficient, in that: 1) we desperately need those Workers for tile improvements and the Palace jump, 2) we lose 10 Shields every time we Join a Worker, and 3) so many Settlers will result in cities in highly underdeveloped areas.

Like E_T said, I think the best way to use our GA if it starts suddenly is to designate our Granary cities (plus maybe a few others) as pump cities, laying down Irrigation to get a decent Food ouptut in them to offset the higher Shield production. All other cities use the GA to build improvements.


Dominae

	15-11-2003 12:18									#7
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Sorry to go OT, but is the plan really to join workers to cities to make settlers?

	15-11-2003 16:37									#8
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That's the first I've heard of it if it is...

	15-11-2003 17:22									#9
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We have discussed this somewhat in chat (about the workers), but I have a surpluss of workers being built, from JUST the 2 worker pumps.

[EDIT] In Lux alone, we will be getting 1 worker every 3 turns, that's 10 workers over the 30 turn time frame. New Cuido (Barley is my working name), it will have 1 worker every 5 turns, when it gets up to speed. I still have not done the details on the other new cities, but the one close to the cows will be a worker pump, too.[/edit]

But yes, getting 18 settlers in 30 turns DOES Require adding Workers to some of the cities, at stratigic intervals.

Also, I WILL have more workers built, from the very corrupt cities that we will be building and all of these will be sufficient to bring New Catch up to size for the Palace move.

E_T

	15-11-2003 18:19									#10
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quote: Originally posted by E_T We have discussed this somewhat in chat (about the workers), but I have a surpluss of workers being built, from JUST the 2 worker pumps. ... But yes, getting 18 settlers in 30 turns DOES Require adding Workers to some of the cities, at stratigic intervals.

(Sorry to stay OT.)

There is no such thing as a surplus of Workers (and if there is, we're far from it), especially during peace-time.

18 Settlers in 30 turns is too fast. We would be investing our current Workers for crappy cities that slowly try to replace those Workers.

A couple of pump cities would not result in as fast an expansion, but pure speed is not the only consideration here (consider how building a Granary in your first city is not about pure speed either).


Dominae

	15-11-2003 19:13									#11
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Speed IS of the essence here, because we need to get those cities UP and running.

Before, you were hawking about building Marketplaces in cities that would be REXing, but I am using those builds to allow us time to get thos particular cities pops up for the REX. And an argument that we could be building Mil Units instead doesn't quite wash, Because I have Bunches of those coming, too!! All Vet!

AND after we do the REX and Palace move, we will also be adding workers to cities that can support the additional pop. Have you even Looked at GWT's city pops recently, they have their capitol at size 12 and one other city at size 7. They are also getting ready to take out CGN in the next 40 turns and will have the settlers already built for placing their new cities.

IMHO, this will be the best way to be actively a competeing force against them. If not, then we might as well give up now.

MoI E_T

	15-11-2003 20:15									#12
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If we are concernd that the life of our UU is in its wanning moments, then I suggest to make a proposel to CFC.

Back in the early days of the PTWDG, when we GOW first decided to be mercs, I drew up some "contracts" that we could sign with any teams we wanted to. I refered to these contracts as "GA Contracts" (and actually had RP in mind when I made it). We would "garuntee" the signing teams GA by building a simple warrior and sending him towards the team that signed the contract. That team would tell us where to place him (presumably on a grass, plain or desert) and we just let him sit there collecting dust until the team wanted a GA. They would let us know they were going to attack the warrior so we would unfortify him and let him be killed by the team that contracted us. Bingo. Instant GA even when your UU is obsolete.

I'm not sure what our plans are with CFC at this time, but this could be a possibility (as well as doing it with GWT or, or... whatever the other one is.

	15-11-2003 21:02									#13
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I was thinking about that, too. But I had posted about it in (IIRC) the CFC thread and it was mostly shot down (atleast in discussion). The reason being, that no one wanted to take the chance of CFC using that (because we would have to resipricate) to possibly hurt us later. But if we are going to be partnering with them, then we should also be thinking seriously about that.

It is one possible option, but not the only one.

E_T

	16-11-2003 00:20									#14
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It sounds like you have this mapped out. Good. How many worker joins to yield settlers? And, do the proposed city sites have usable tiles for the newly settled cities to use?

	16-11-2003 01:07									#15
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As for the new city sites, see the setting GCA & CDG lands thread, for the different phases of the settlement plans.

And for the workers, I'm looking at (right now) around 8 to 10 over the 30 turn period, but I'm reworking a few things to try to reduce that.

MoI E_T

	09-12-2003 18:36									#16
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-bump-

	09-12-2003 19:20									#17
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Delay.

As per E_T's post above.

	09-12-2003 23:14									#18
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I see all my b*tching and moaning in the first turn of the war NOT to trigger our GA has been for the best

I wonder though, despite our itnetnions to keep CFC around for a while, there will come a point in which we will want to take them out. that will likely be after getting Cavs which means that will be the next time a possibility for getting our GA will come.

Will this be too far in the future to be worthwhile? I am mixed. I would definitely like a late medieval GA but we don't know if the situation in the other continent might warrant us to need to get the extra growth sooner.

	09-12-2003 23:39									#19
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Do we believe that we should save a 2 attack unit until after we get Cavs and possibly into the Industrial Ages in hopes that we might find a wounded musket or rifleman to kill with it?

Are we just not going to upgrade all of our mercs and have to build a whole new defense force ... because we won't be able to build mercs once gunpowder comes around and we're going to need a large batch of them to ensure a win? Gunpowder will be here within the next 30 turns.

Are we actually going to agree that some point in the future is "the time" for our GA? When is that time? All I know is that it's "not now" because ...?

Everything we build now we get to use the rest of the game. Every extra turn with a market, library, courthouse is hundreds and hundreds of extra commerce compounded over time.

Frankly, I think we missed our chance to start our GA the reliable way. We could have planned for it and undertaken it. We may never get another shot at a GCA unit.

We don't have AIs to just declare war on and pummel their ancient units. We have to fight a human opponent who's not going to make it easy for us, nor will they allow us to cease the war to use our GA on infrastructure where we need it.

--Togas

	09-12-2003 23:46									#20
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You seem to neglect the fact that we can trigger our GA by building wonders Togas.

E_T and others are certainly correct... NOW is not the time for our GA. Our pop levels in our cities will be dropping very low, we won't have Markets or Libraries or anything else to help boost commerce and production. Later on we will. All of those things will help boost the efficiency of our GA.

Also, GWT and CGN still have their GAs to come. If we preserve ours and trigger ours at the same time/after theirs then we will gain a very powerful advantage. We don't really need our GA right now since all we're going to be doing is building lots of Settlers and Workers, chopping jungle, building roads and settling cities. That is not the best time to have a large boost in production and commerce... right when you're concentrating on expandind and shrinking your cities.

	09-12-2003 23:59									#21
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I'd like to develop a specific plan for starting our GA by wonders, as posted in the other thread.

	10-12-2003 01:53									#22
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E_T has good arguements. I think we should wait.

	10-12-2003 02:47									#23
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I thought that you could always build your UU even if it was obselete?

	10-12-2003 02:56									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 I thought that you could always build your UU even if it was obselete?

Nope. I remember being unable to build new Gallic Warriors in a game as the Celts once I got Feudalism.

	10-12-2003 04:09									#25
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Which wonders will we build?
Which two cities will we take offline to build them?

WHEN are we going to do our GA? There is always something more to build and something more to wait for. Granted this isn't an ideal time, but there never is an ideal time. The stars never allign themselves properly and -- worst case -- we could be happily in the midst of expansion when CFC attacks a merc and starts it for us at a time that we're entirely unprepared for.

I'll shut up if the people who keep saying "Later" actually set forth a time and a plan for it to occur.

--Togas

	10-12-2003 05:40									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Nope. I remember being unable to build new Gallic Warriors in a game as the Celts once I got Feudalism.

Can this be checked further....
In my DON PBEM, I definately have the option to build Ansars and cavalry.

When it comes to actually building them. Some of my cities automatically switch to cavalry when I get the save, and others produce Ansars with no problems.

I just thought the cities that switched to cavalry was a bug as the rule was to always have the ability to build your UU until your GA starts.