15-11-2003 22:34									#1
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I've been thinking about hypocrisy. What is it, exactly? It may seems simple, but it isn't. If you define hypocrisy as saying something is wrong, but then saying it is okay for you to do it, then you end up calling a lot of things that aren't hypocrisy hypocrisy. For example, the average American is not allowed to pass laws. Congress is. Does that make Congress full of hypocrites (it is, but that's not the point )?

It seems to me the best definition of hypocrisy is saying that something is wrong to do when you do it yourself. This is subtly different from the previous definition, in that you don't say that you are an exception to the rule. This definition seems to work pretty well.

However, it brings up an interesting question: is hypocrisy really a bad thing? If I am a serial murderer, is it a bad thing for me to prevent other people from murdering people, or to say that murder is bad? Yes, being a serial murderer is a very bad thing, but does the act of saying "murder is wrong" suddenly become a morally wrong act if I murder someone?

I do agree that it is bad to be a hypocrite, but people always seem to attack hypocrites from the wrong angle -that they are preaching what they don't practice. You can only validly attack a hypocrite from the other direction - not practicing what they preach.

	15-11-2003 22:38									#2
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Main Entry: hy·poc·ri·sy
Etymology: Middle English ypocrisie, from Old French, from Late Latin hypocrisis, from Greek hypokrisis act of playing a part on the stage, hypocrisy, from hypokrinesthai to answer, act on the stage, from hypo- + krinein to decide -- more at CERTAIN
Date: 13th century
1 : a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; especially : the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion
2 : an act or instance of hypocrisy

	15-11-2003 22:53									#3
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As Ann Coulter noted, you can avoid being a hypocrite by having no morals. Does this imply also that a person who is not a hypocrite has no morals?

	15-11-2003 22:54									#4
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quote: As Ann Coulter noted, you can avoid being a hypocrite by having no morals. Does this imply also that a person who is not a hypcrite has no morals?

a) Ann Coulter is a moron
b) she's wrong

If a Democrat supports a law that that Democrat breaks, then that person is a hypocrite. Morality is not a necessary part. Moreover, it is the PREACHING of morals that would be necessary, not the HAVING.

	15-11-2003 23:01									#5
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker However, it brings up an interesting question: is hypocrisy really a bad thing? If I am a serial murderer, is it a bad thing for me to prevent other people from murdering people, or to say that murder is bad?

Hypocrisy seems to only apply when you pretend you are something good or virtuous but in fact you are not. Say you proclaim adultery is bad, then turn around and have an extramartial affair with an intern. Or perhaps Jerry Falwell caught selling porn.

	15-11-2003 23:20									#6
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Skywalker, I don't think preaching is required. An ostentatious display such as going to church or carrying the Bible may be sufficient to make one a hypocrite if his personal conduct is inconsistent.

Also, one can be hypocrite if one selectively condemns others. For example, one could condemn Clinton for molesting or harassing women and be a hypocrite for failing to condemn similar actions by Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Also one would be hypocrite for defending Clinton and condemning Schwarzenegger when the conduct is essentially the same.

If it is true that only Saints and the openly sinful are not hypocrites, if a person is not hypocrite then he is one or the other. Since Saints are extremely rare, is it not then generally true that a person who is not a hypocrite has no morals?

	15-11-2003 23:26									#7
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If you keep repeating it, it'll be true.

	15-11-2003 23:38									#8
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Interestingly enough in Greek another word for actor is "Hypocritis". The main word for actor is "Ethopoios" (=poet (or maker) of ethos (also interpreted as moods, sentiments). But an actor is normally called an Ethopoios not a Hypocritis. Although we can say he has a great "hypocritical talent" which in said case means "acting talent".

	15-11-2003 23:53									#9
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So, can you tell us the Greek root for "kimono"?

	15-11-2003 23:59									#10
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Hypocrasy can be very damaging, since someone who is a hypocrite does more to undermine the values they state they defend when they are found out than someone who commits the same act without any hypocrasy involved.

One of the reasons the US does not have a very good image in Latin America, for example, was the utter hypocracy of stating the fight vs. Communism was all about democracy while giving aid and support to anti-communist right-wing dictators. No one has forgotten, and it takes a lot to undo such damage to credability.

	16-11-2003 00:01									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Ned As Ann Coulter noted, you can avoid being a hypocrite by having no morals. Does this imply also that a person who is not a hypocrite has no morals?

I love using this image

	16-11-2003 00:17									#12
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Never heard of her but she definitely looks dangerous and crazed.

	16-11-2003 00:29									#13
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* Kuciwalker agrees with paiktis

All of your comments are good, but I'm still not seeing quite how hypocrisy itself is morally wrong. I understand that one of its components, doing something bad, is wrong, but I don't exactly see how you criticize someone by calling them a hypocrite. Wouldn't you criticize them by saying that they did bad stuff?

	16-11-2003 00:35									#14
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Hypocrasy is a form of lying... yes, some lies have little effect, andf some lies may actually do good, in a limited sense..but overall, lies are what they are, and ditto for the subheading of hypocrasy.

Does that answer the question?

	16-11-2003 00:36									#15
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Yes. Thank you.

	16-11-2003 01:22									#16
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker * skywalker agrees with paiktis All of your comments are good, but I'm still not seeing quite how hypocrisy itself is morally wrong. I understand that one of its components, doing something bad, is wrong, but I don't exactly see how you criticize someone by calling them a hypocrite. Wouldn't you criticize them by saying that they did bad stuff?

Well, for one you might not think the stuff they do is bad. The hellfire preacher who has a homosexual relationship isn't bad because of that particular aspect of their life...

	16-11-2003 03:07									#17
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quote: So, can you tell us the Greek root for "kimono"?

	16-11-2003 04:20									#18
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I loved that movie.

Perhaps Rush Limbaugh condemning drug abuse or Jimmy Swaggert condemning extramarital sex are two good examples of hypocrisy.

I am a hypocrite. There, I said it.

	16-11-2003 04:28									#19
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quote: I love using this image

I prefer this.

	16-11-2003 05:12									#20
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I am sorry, but that second poster does Anne Coulter a big favor. She is in reality a horse faced shock monkey.

A murderer has no right to say murder is bad, so yes, he would just be lumping himself with more "immorality" to make such statements.

Regarding morals:

The bible calls satan the "father of lies". Jesus only got angry with one group of people, the pharises, because of hypocrisy, and yet he loved a "morally bankrupt" prostitute.

Conservatives seem to hold up their "morals" on a pedestal, as if they have a monopoly on the definition. To me, morals are treating your fellow man with respect, any other definition is illogical.

	16-11-2003 05:28									#21
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Well, if you go by Kantian morality all immoral acts are in fact hypocritical, at least if your morality follows Kant's own logic.

	16-11-2003 06:10									#22
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Ned -

quote: As Ann Coulter noted, you can avoid being a hypocrite by having no morals. Does this imply also that a person who is not a hypocrite has no morals?

You can avoid being a hypocrite by having morals and not violating them too. But Coulter's argument is illogical, she used this "gem" of wisdom in defense of Limbaugh - a hypocrite (go figure, instead of criticising him she goes after other people) - in response to people who pointed out his hypocrisy. She argued the people who were going after Limbaugh turn a blind eye when liberal celebrities get addicted to drugs. No kidding Ann, they weren't condemning Limbaugh for using illegal drugs, they were poking fun at him for doing what he has condemned in the past.

So what's the difference between Limbaugh and these liberal celebrities with drug problems? Presumably, only Limbaugh has condemned illegal drug use, and only Limbaugh has made fun of addicts, and the liberal celebrities with addiction problems haven't as far as we know. It's no different that Jimmy Swaggart preaching against sexual "sin" only to get caught soliciting prostitutes. Liberals didn't go after Swaggart for hiring prostitutes, they went after him for preaching against prostitution while hiring prostitutes.

And Coulter makes the convenient assumption that while conservatives have morals and are therefore open to the charge of hypocrisy if they violate those morals, liberals have no morals when in fact they do. For example, look at the flack Howard Dean has been getting over the Confederate flag issue. What if a liberal member of Congress was caught discriminating based on race? Watch out, then we'd see which liberals were guilty of hypocrisy but undoubtedly some liberals would condemn the congressman. We found out many are guilty when they either defended Clinton's behavior or remained mute. Of course, I believe liberals and conservatives don't have a clue about the meaning of morality and I'm sure they feel the same way about me (but I'm right ).

quote: Also, one can be hypocrite if one selectively condemns others. For example, one could condemn Clinton for molesting or harassing women and be a hypocrite for failing to condemn similar actions by Arnold Schwarzenegger.

And where was Ann? Criticising Clinton but not Arnie... She wasn't alone, lost of Repubs were quite vocal about Clinton and dismissive or apologetic of Arnie's escapades.

quote: Also one would be hypocrite for defending Clinton and condemning Schwarzenegger when the conduct is essentially the same.

Yup, plenty of liberals were kissing Clinton's behind but when it came to Arnie, oh boy, he was disqualified from holding office.

quote: If it is true that only Saints and the openly sinful are not hypocrites, if a person is not hypocrite then he is one or the other. Since Saints are extremely rare, is it not then generally true that a person who is not a hypocrite has no morals?

Nope, "sinners" can have morals, they just may not have the same morals as other people. Bill Bennett gambled lots of money, but he and his defenders said gambling was not a sin according to his religion (gee, I can be a murderer without sinning if my religion says so?). But gambling is sinful to other people, so does that mean Bennett has no morals? Btw, when Jesus was speaking against hypocrites who judge others, what were his words? "Before removing the speck from your brother's eye, first remove the plank from your own".

The hypocrite is worse than the sinner... And if you look at how Jesus behaved towards others, sinners were typically treated with respect while Jesus was constantly giving the hypocrites a tongue-lashing...

	16-11-2003 06:20									#23
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Oh, btw, Bill Bennett was guilty of hypocisy for gambling. You see, Bennett condemns drug use, not because every drug user hurts others, but because some do. The drug users who don't hurt others were immoral because of the other drug users who do hurt others. Using that same standard with gambling, Bennett didn't have to hurt others with his gambling, just the fact some gamblers do hurt others makes Bennett immoral (that's his standard). Michael Kinsley wrote an article explaining Bennett's hypocrisy and it went right over the head of Bill O'Reilly who was defending Bennett from the "witch hunters".

	16-11-2003 07:49									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Also, one can be hypocrite if one selectively condemns others. For example, one could condemn Clinton for molesting or harassing women and be a hypocrite for failing to condemn similar actions by Arnold Schwarzenegger. Also one would be hypocrite for defending Clinton and condemning Schwarzenegger when the conduct is essentially the same.

I think that's called a double standard, not hypocrisy.

	16-11-2003 07:54									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Oh, btw, Bill Bennett was guilty of hypocisy for gambling. You see, Bennett condemns drug use, not because every drug user hurts others, but because some do. The drug users who don't hurt others were immoral because of the other drug users who do hurt others. Using that same standard with gambling, Bennett didn't have to hurt others with his gambling, just the fact some gamblers do hurt others makes Bennett immoral (that's his standard). Michael Kinsley wrote an article explaining Bennett's hypocrisy and it went right over the head of Bill O'Reilly who was defending Bennett from the "witch hunters".

I haven't looked closely at your argument, but it looks merely like an inconsistency, not hypocrisy.

	16-11-2003 08:23									#26
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Anyone know of any laws against hypocrisy?

	16-11-2003 08:28									#27
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There aren't laws against lying, per se, but that doesn't mean it isn't a despicable thing to do.

	16-11-2003 08:54									#28
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quote: The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness

quote: hypocrisy [Show phonetics] noun [U] when someone pretends to believe something that they do not really believe or that is the opposite of what they do or say at another time: There's one rule for her and another rule for everyone else and it's sheer hypocrisy. hypocrite [Show phonetics] noun [C] He's a hypocrite - he's always lecturing other people on the environment but he drives around in a huge great car. hypocritical [Show phonetics] adjective Their accusations of corruption are hypocritical - they have been just as corrupt themselves.

UR -

quote: I haven't looked closely at your argument, but it looks merely like an inconsistency, not hypocrisy.

Inconsistency is at the heart of hypocrisy.

	16-11-2003 09:12									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov There aren't laws against lying, per se, but that doesn't mean it isn't a despicable thing to do.

Yeah, but what are the consequences of being thought despicable? Many who make a career of it are laughing all the way to the bank. I wish I could get rid of my conscience long enough to secure myself through my retirement.

	16-11-2003 09:14									#30
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What does it profit a man (or woman!) should s/he gain the world but lose his/her soul?

Boy, gender equity sure deflates eloquence...