16-11-2003 10:17									#1
	Build Leo's with possible GL? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Just a small discussion here, should in the likely/unlikely event that we get a GL from combat against GCA, what should we do with it?

I would very much like to get Leo's for two reasons, first of all is it's obvious military use to us, imagine, 40g knight upgrades! The fact that it's never obsolete also means that it's advantages are permanent, from here to the endgame. The second reason is more indirect but no less important: so that neither CGN or GWT get it. I would especially fear GWT getting it as it would mean 30g Ansar upgrades which means they could very likely annihilate CGN with that or at least leave them permanently crippled.

Obviously there are many other things we can use the GL for, an Army, another wonder, or of course, to rush a warrior with it in time of need.

Oh, and for those concerned with the FP, we will be building it in turn 161 which means it's not that far away and do not really nead a GL to do it.

Please discuss.

-MZ

	16-11-2003 10:22									#2
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A GL on an FP when the FP is in the core is a massive waste.

Leo's is not a bad option. Sistine should not be dismissed though.

	16-11-2003 14:02									#3
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Leo's

I do not think that happiness problems will be a huge factor for us. I mean I would like to have them both. (Sistine and Leo's) but I think Leo's would do more for us in the long term, as well as keeping CGN or GWT from using it.

	16-11-2003 19:22									#4
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I have come to discover the massive importance of Leo's (more so in MP games).

In MP games against other humans/teams, there are massive stacks of troops. All these troops get outdated rather quickly with tech alliances and quick deal that I have seen happen (mostly in PTWDG). Now all these outdated troops need to get upgraded.

Just for arguments sake, lets say the it cost 100 gold to upgrade a horse to a knight. Now imagine a stack of 15 horse sitting around after the war with GCA. To upgrade this stack, it would normally cost 1500 gold. With Leo's it would cost 750 gold.

Don't think we'll have 15 horse sitting around by the time we get chivalry? Wrong. Think about disconnecting our sorce of iron. Over the corse of this game, Leo's will prove to be one of the most important wonders.

	16-11-2003 20:15									#5
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Please consider Sun Tzu's. You can look at this in two ways:

1. The ability to build veteran units in every city (33% more toughness);
   
2. The saved barracks build costs (shields & time) and upkeep costs (gold).
   

	16-11-2003 20:43									#6
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Leo's is economically sound

I would like to get both Leo's and ST, but that isn't very likely to happen.

E_T

	16-11-2003 22:16									#7
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Depends on the GL timing, I guess. If we get one this turn, I think it would not be very wise to keep him around for 20 odd turns until we finally discover Invention... ST would make more sense then.

With the discovery of Invention getting closer and closer, this will be of lesser concern and Leo's will become a more viable use.

	17-11-2003 01:11									#8
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I agree with Vondrack, it depends totally on how far from invention we are when/if we get a leader and how much more fighting with elites we intend to do in those interim turns.

	17-11-2003 01:18									#9
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I do not think we even have an elite to fight with now.

	17-11-2003 01:23									#10
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The thing about Sun Tzu is that usually not every city is used for military production, thus, to have a powerful army you do not need barracks in every city, just those who are going to be maintaining constant military procution (yeah, you can tell I love camps). Plus, I have a gut feeling CGN or GWT is going to beat us to Sun Tzu's

	17-11-2003 02:56									#11
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Well they wouldn't likely beat us if we got a leader this turn

But if we use a leader to rush a wonder they have nearly completed, then we may just be making it even easier for them to get leo's or the sistine or whatever else might help them even more.

But I agree with you that the value of Sun Tzu's is fairly limited for military production (we'd likely build baracks in all of our big unit producing cities anyways), and for the gold benefits, leo's would likely come out ahead as well. The one thing Sun Tzu's is very nice for is when fighting a war on your own continent, the fast healing in newly conquered cities can be really nice. But even that is fast becoming something that wouldn't matter a whole lot to us.

	18-11-2003 07:18									#12
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Leo's.

	18-11-2003 08:40									#13
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I like Leo's But are we planning to do any intercontinental warfare?