17-11-2003 09:50									#1
	old newbie question: Losing troops when a city flips Support Apolyton

Oh wizened Forumers, I would appreciate some education on how the game handles military units in cities that flip.

When you have military units in a town that undergoes a culture flip, what happens to those units?
Do they (a) disappear; (b) join the other Civ; (c) move outside the town; (d) other?

This came up because I realized that I have never had a garrisoned town flip on me (at least in my first 500+ hours of playing...)

A fellow PTW player recently posted a message on our local game server warning other players to be careful not to lose troops in cities that might culture flip. He reported that he had lost a bomber wing in a city that he had taken, then had flipped back to its original Civ.

I sent a response stating that I usually put MANY troops into a city to prevent them from flipping, plus build culture, etc. in accordance with the culture flip equations (posted on 'Poly and civfanatics). I could understand losing bombers or other defenseless troops (e.g. artillery or workers), but expect that if a city with a garrison flipped that the units would move away, like when you trade a city. Of course, this would create a risk for re-taking the city, so that might not make sense either.

Whatever the case, I've never seen it happen, and rather than consulting the ambiguous documentation, I thought I'd go to a better source... you folks with the battlescars.

Many thanks in advance for clarifying this for me/us.
Cheers, bvc

	17-11-2003 11:01									#2
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Poof! They vanish, apparently overwhelmed and slaughtered by that kind looking lady working the flood plains to the south.

	17-11-2003 11:36									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi Poof! They vanish

That must be extremely "non-triumphant"; very "non-non-non-non-non-non heinous" [Bill&Ted 1988/1991]. Now I'm glad I've never seen it happen.

I can rationalize this from a game mechanics point-of-view, but it is a little hard to accept it as logical in-game event when a city turns its back on its parent Civ. Were all of those Mech Infantry overcome by citizens with pitchforks? Did the Modern Armor stationed there join the population and forget their training*?

I know, it's just a game... it's just a game...
- bvc

*Footnote: I didn't mention garrison Tanks, because of course they were destroyed by the local Pikemen

	17-11-2003 12:11									#4
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That's why I tend not to put significant garrisons into a city until after I've killed off it's parent civilization entirely, if at all possible.

Garrisoning cities that are out of the immediate range of the enemy and that could still flip is a really good job for non-upgradable obsolete units.

Last edited by Outsider on 17-11-2003 at 13:29

	17-11-2003 13:25									#5
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Best thread on the net regarding the inner workings of culture flips

	17-11-2003 14:21									#6
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Love the thread title! "Old newbie question" - classic.

Ah yes - this old chestnut. If you leave the city undefended and camp your troops nearby, you can take it over and over again, gaining more gold each time (as long as the parent civ still ahs some!). However, I have not seen this work. I have never seen a defenceless city I have just taken flip back - it's as if the game KNOWS what I am planning and thus is determined I will ose at least one unit in the city before it considers flipping on me.

Cheek.

Although alva's posted thread (if it is what I think it is) is excellent, other rules of thumb discussed in more detail there are that, apart from 1 unit garrison per pop to (mostly) prevent flips and building culture there quickly, capturing/destroying other civ's cities nearby helps alleviate the "culture pressure" on that city, and also starving the native populace down to 1 and then allowing it to grow with your natives (either naturally or by adding your own workers) "dilutes" the culture flip phenomenon.

Last edited by MrWhereItsAt on 17-11-2003 at 14:27

	17-11-2003 14:29									#7
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quote: and also starving the native populace down to 1

Mwah, the best thing to do is ge them in a 'we love the king' mood and try to expand your city borders ASAP!!.

	17-11-2003 18:30									#8
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Well first you need to quell the resistors as well before you can even THINK of a WLT*D, which could divert crucial troops from where they're needed. Moreover, the city may be cut off from your luxury supplies. Especially now resources are all the more scarce in C3C, it may be too much bother/impossible to get to WLT*D. Starvation is the best way for me.

	17-11-2003 21:53									#9
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quote: Originally posted by alva Best thread on the net regarding the inner workings of culture flips

Thanks; a highly recommended thread.
I think that one of the reasons that I've never had flip problems, including games at the higher levels, is that I saw this equation (on civfanatics) about 1 week after I began playing and have used it in my town-takeover planning since. It has also helped that I've had enough cash to rush a Temple on the first turn, and often have played Religious Civs, which have meant a lot of Temples to extend my borders, while picking up good aggregate culture as well.

With respect to starvation, I often encourage it for corrupt enemy towns of under 6 pop, as it tends to flush away unproductive flip-inciters, and makes things easier to manage. After the rushed Temples (and perhaps Harbors, Walls, etc.), I may also flush the towns by rushing Settlers or Workers, which at least can promote some progress in the area of a corrupt takeover.

With respect to WLTKDs, clearly it is nice to bring about when there is enough population left after the quelling and starvation during the 'time of grumbling' that can follow. In general I encourage WLTKDs everywhere in towns of at least 6 pop further away from the palace(s) if I can afford it.

Thanks all for your comments. -bvc

	17-11-2003 22:07									#10
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Love the thread title! "Old newbie question" - classic.

Glad you liked it!

I chose the title because:
1) the question is pertinent for those who have not experienced the stated event (newbie)
2) the question must have been around a long time (old)
3) the game has enough rich detail that its mechanics take a long time to comletely understand, so...
4) despite a fair amount of experience with the game, I find myself asking these basic questions (old newbie = me), and finally...
5) I am so sleep-deprived from playing this game that I feel much, much older...
though not any more mature!

Cheers, bvc

	18-11-2003 03:46									#11
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BVC,

To answer your original question, yes, your troops just disappear--I guess the local citizenry luls your troops into a false trust, gets them drunk and then slits their throats while they're in their alcohol-induced coma.

While playing as the Chinese, I captured a Japanese city. I garrisoned it with some troops (it still had a barracks and I was hoping to heal my recently-wounded attackers). Before they even healed, BOOM, culture-flip back to Japan.

So, I took the city again. This time I was 'smarter'. I stationed lots of troops--at least 2 per citizen. BOOM! I lost all those units.

At this point, I was livid. I retook the city a third time, and razed it, adding those 'flipping' disgruntled citizens to my work-force. Then I brought-in a Settler and built my own city on the former site and named it, "Used to be xx" (where xx was the name of the original city which by now I've forgotten)

Anyway, it is MOST Annoying when it happens.