17-11-2003 21:04									#1
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Alright all you Civ hot shots.

I switched from Regent to Monarch about when I got C3C - I played 2 Monarch games to victory on PTW.

Now I'm having a damn hard time getting anywhere in C3C.

The question I have is, am I being creamed because I'm on a new difficultly level? Or is the AI just better this time around?

I just want general impressions from those of you who consistently win Monarch or higher difficulty levels, whether the game is indeed harder now. Is the mass warrior to swordsmen upgrade effectively out the window? Is it now worth your time to crank up research in the ancient era? The game seems so difficult, I want some feedback from the pros to assure me one way or another whether or not this is so.

	17-11-2003 21:25									#2
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quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth The question I have is, am I being creamed because I'm on a new difficultly level? Or is the AI just better this time around?

The things that have made the game more difficult for me have little to do with the AI. My biggest problems have been:

1. Luxury Resource scarcity. This is number one on the list. I used to just grab/trade for all 8 luxuries, build a marketplace, and then ride out the game in Republic. Now I might only get five or six luxuries, so the marketplace isn't as effective and War Weariness gets me in trouble should a conflict drag on too long. I'm learning to fight short, targeted wars to overcome this.

2. Strategic Resource scarcity. Second on the list, I'm finding it more difficult to obtain a source of rather important strategic resources. I actually had to trade for horses in my current game. I never do that! Seems if I luck into one or two strategic resources within 15 tiles of my capital I'm having a good game.

3. MGLs can't rush Great Wonders. That's how I used to build any wonder I could get my hands on in the Ancient Era, and some in the Middle Era. I know SGLs can still rush build GWs, but I have yet to see one (and yes I'm maintaining a tech lead and yes I'm playing a Scientific Civ). Now I'm doing earlier pre-builds and thus fielding fewer units.

There's more, but those are the biggies for me.

	17-11-2003 21:31									#3
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I have seen some resource luxury... in my current game I've got some beautiful land, lots of iron and horses, but only ONE luxury, and only one SOURCE of that one luxury (it's some spices on a forest north of Rome, my capital).

As for the SGLs... I have yet to see one either, and I've had a tech lead consistently now, even in games I quit, because I can't bring myself to research at 50 turns (except for a few techs, namely Alphabet and Writing). I've always been first to get Philosophy - love the free tech - but I've yet to see an SGL.

I think 3% (that the official chance for a non-scientific civ, right?) is just absymally low. Shouldn't it be 10%? I mean, hey, 1 in 10 is still a slight chance. You still have to research your pants off to get 1 or 2 SGLs in a game with a 1 in 10 chance. Never mind a 3 in 100 chance.

	17-11-2003 21:40									#4
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3% might be a little low... 5% is probably better. But I think 10% is high. Maybe 5% for non-sci civs and 7-8% for sci civs? Too early to really tell if it needs adjustment, though. I've gotten three, all concentrated in one game, in the span of 5 techs. Edit: 4, if you count the one I got playing a Conquest (first tech I researched in the Mesopotamia Conquest. Bam, Statue of Zeus complete).

As for the AI, tough to tell, given that I've only played a few games (and none all the way out). It feels like Monarch is easier... but that could be small sample size.

I've played some of the Conquests lately instead of the regular game.

-Arrian

	17-11-2003 21:40									#5
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The strat. resource scarcity does make for some interesting games. In my current game, on a continent of 4 civilizations, there is a SINGLE horse resource, held by the Vikings. And the AI knew it; as soon as they got HBR, the Vikings declared war with their fresh new mobile forces. Fortunately my Statue of Zeus was finished in time to give me some of my own

	17-11-2003 22:01									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I've gotten three, all concentrated in one game, in the span of 5 techs.

That sounds like a lucky streak to me... but I guess I could be wrong.

Monarch feels easier, huh? Hmmm... well, I guess I have some things to get used.

I'm disgruntled to see that the Carthaginians have NOT been toned down... if anything, they seem like a greater threat now.

	17-11-2003 22:47									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian 3% might be a little low... 5% is probably better. But I think 10% is high. Maybe 5% for non-sci civs and 7-8% for sci civs? Too early to really tell if it needs adjustment, though. I've gotten three, all concentrated in one game, in the span of 5 techs. Edit: 4, if you count the one I got playing a Conquest (first tech I researched in the Mesopotamia Conquest. Bam, Statue of Zeus complete). As for the AI, tough to tell, given that I've only played a few games (and none all the way out). It feels like Monarch is easier... but that could be small sample size. I've played some of the Conquests lately instead of the regular game. -Arrian

Re: SGLs I'm actually leaning towards nerfing these things. They're too random for the amount of power they can generate. Getting the Pyramids in 2900 bc thanks to a SGL was nice, getting another one to rush the GL in 800 bc?.........well I gave up on that game. Too easy. I'm starting to think that allowing the rushing of any Great Wonder should either be disallowed entirely or allowing cash rushing of GWs, possibly at a vastly increased gold cost (ie 8 gold per wonder shield).

Re the AI: It's changed. Militarilly it's a lot tighter and the AI's naval game is much improved. It's tech choices I've found to be somewhat questionable at times. I've noticed a tendancy for the AI in C3C to avoid Literature. This isn't always a bad thing, but when not a single AI has Literature in 980 AD, including the Scientific civs..........not good.

	17-11-2003 22:52									#8
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Jee, am I one of the few that has not come across an SGL yet? Strange...

	17-11-2003 22:56									#9
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they're rare, I've only seen 3 so far. But 2 in one ancient era is a little too much.

	17-11-2003 23:13									#10
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I too have felt the rushing of wonders may need a nerfing. I suggested only the first one (SGL) be allowed to rush a wonder.
I got 4 as Ottoman in one game, but none in the first two ages.

	17-11-2003 23:37									#11
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Are these showing up late in the game?

How are you getting so far ahead in research?

I've had a mixture of games where I was way, way ahead in tech in the ancient era and saw no GLs, of games where I was way, way behind, and of games where I was about even or a little ahead/behind, but always the first to get Philosophy, and no SGLs here.

...ah well, I should quit my kvetching I suppose. I suppose a consensus will gradually emerge.

	18-11-2003 00:12									#12
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quote: I've noticed a tendancy for the AI in C3C to avoid Literature.

Me too. I think that's a problem that needs fixing.

Here's an idea for the "nerfing" of SGLs that might be difficult to code:

Have an SGL be capable of spurring a Golden Age in 1 city. Basically, pick one city to juice up for 20 turns. That oughtta give you a real good shot at a wonder, but it isn't nearly as strong as "Presto! Insta-Pyramids, 3000BC!"

I can't believe I'm saying this.

-Arrian

	18-11-2003 00:14									#13
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Maybe SGLs should only give back 100 shields to a city instead of completely rushing a whole wonder. It would play more strategy into when you would use the SGL instead of knowing you will for sure get the wonder you want with a SGL.

	18-11-2003 00:24									#14
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SGLs will make the came too easy, but i think a harder AI will balance this out, so anyway if the AI is going to be harder, better start practising,

	18-11-2003 00:33									#15
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Why not have a new class of Wonders - Intellectual Wonders, or Cultural Wonders? They could be the ones that aren't buildings (eg Theory of Evolution, Bach, Shakespeare etc - yes, I know the game calls Bach and Shakespeare buildings, but they're not really, are they?). These Wonders could be the ones that leaders can rush. To add a twist, perhaps they could be built *only* by leaders - after all, why should a city with more shields be better at producing Shakespeare than one with few? Treating these cultural achievements as things to be built is pretty skew-wiff in the first place, I think.

	18-11-2003 01:07									#16
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SGL's happen rarely enough that they do not need to be nerfed further. It will be the RARE game that provides a rushed Pyramids in the very early game. (Sure, ANYTHING's possible, even in life ... but bloody unlikely!)

@Arrian: Don't believe it, then. Edit it, even.

	18-11-2003 01:22									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Have an SGL be capable of spurring a Golden Age in 1 city. Basically, pick one city to juice up for 20 turns. That oughtta give you a real good shot at a wonder, but it isn't nearly as strong as "Presto! Insta-Pyramids, 3000BC!"

The 'golden age in one city'-idea is actually quite old - the forum member (can't rememer the name) called it a 'silver age' and envisioned it as a third option to use vanilla Civ's/PTW's Great Leaders.

quote: I can't believe I'm saying this.

I felt quite good after getting a Scientific Great Leader in my first Conquest game and rushing the Great Lighthouse without any prior warfare. This is builder's revenge.

	18-11-2003 02:27									#18
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builders revenge. that's absolutely perfect. and it makes me feel less guilty

i'm busy thinking of the implications of a tourist attraction going live in 2000bc - that's, what, 40 turns into the game? i don't remember.

and the above example of getting the statue of zeus at the extreme beginning of the game... sure, it's just about *never* gonna happen in an epic game (stupid ivory), but it seems to me it would be quite difficult to *lose* that game. by the time it's obsolete, you're cranking out enough money to bump tech spending a notch or two, and you should already have dozens and dozens of ancient cavalry.

perhaps sgls could simply do half the work left on any given wonder?

as for one city golden ages (or silver ages, or whatever), i actually thought that's how they functioned upon first reading about sgl's. i like it, but it would need to last longer. hmm... something like double total output for fifty turns. or maybe i'm just a daydreaming builder

i like the sound of cultural wonders, but it's a tad ambitious for firaxis, imo

	18-11-2003 03:22									#19
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Arrian: Love the Golden Age for one city idea. :b It's a good incentive to do your own reasearch and give you a great shot (but no guarantee) of an ancient GW........or do you build some infrastructure, units and go conquering?. Or do you use your leader to get that extra leg up on tech?. It opens up strategic choices, whereas the current system is pretty much a no-brainer: +25% science for 20 turns, or an Ancient/Middle Ages Era Wonder. Not much choice there I'd say.

Jaybe: The problem isn't rarity, soon or later no matter how long the odds you're going to get an SGL early. This gives you an unbeatable edge: not only do you get your pick of Ancient era wonders but your wonder will be a maxed out tourist attraction before 1ad. This alone is huge. It means an extra 14 raw commerce in the city. In the game I got the early SGL's I was playing as the Chinese (I wanted to give Rider armies a try :evilgrin. I researched the Wheel, (traded for Alphbet), Writing, Philosophy (Literature as freebie), Code of Laws and Republic all at max research. The wheel gave me an SGL (Pyramids 2900 BC, maxed out tourist attraction at 400 BC. The Pyramids are producing more raw commerce for me than the Colossus would have in PTW :eek.

The second SGL came with Code of Laws. I hemmed and hawwed for a few minutes, trying to decide if I wanted the Great Library or The Great Lighthouse. The game (if I bother to play it any further) will be an absolute thrashing of the AI. It just won't be much fun getting there. The game is already beat, not because I pulled off a strategic invasion or a diplomatic coup to isolate a stronger enemy, but because the RNG came up with a couple of long shots.


I had a lot more fun with the previous opening I'd played with the Byzantines. Started with the Philosophy beeline (ie same opening tech gambit). Failed to gain any SGLs, I was crowded in by the Chinese and the French right on top of me. I fought, struggled and microed like heck to fight my way out of that one (and even managed to mount a long range seaborne Drommon supported invasion of the Iroquois in the far North of my continent). If I play this one out (unlikely given the gpt and corruption bugs) it will be a lot more satisfying because I earned the win rather than having it handed to me by the whim of the RNG.

	18-11-2003 03:49									#20
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Too early for me to say whether the changes in C3C taken as a whole equate to an imporved or a degraded AI, especially playing games under the very serious corruption and gpt bugs.

Re SGL's: I've had a few so far but haven't yet enjoyed a very early one - I think my earliest came in time to rush Leo's for me. I am not convinced that they are any more imablancing than GLs under PTW was. Even a scientific civ has only a 1/20 chance of getting an SGL, and with only 21 techs in the ancient age, two of which you start with and probably 4 or 5 more which are known to other civs at the start, you actually have less of a chance at an SGL than you did at generating GLs under PTW with only one elite victory, let alone multiple elite victories (and even for non-militaristic civs it wasn't, IMHO, too tough to generate one or more elite units and then send them into battle for their 1/16 chance at a GL). I'd consider an early SGL no more problematic to game balance than an early GL from wacking an AI settler or from an early archer rush was under vanilla and PTW.

I am a bit more worried about the middle ages. Granted it is only a small sample size and we can't know the true impact of the bugs in the release version, but I am finding it a bit easier to secure and hold an early tech lead, even when eschewing any tech for gpt deals from the AI (i.e., researching everthing on one's own without the help of AI gpt and the hurt (to AIs) of gpt). If you can secure a tech lead by the end of the ancient age and then hold it effectively, you have secured all possible SGLs for yourself and denied the AI the same opportunity.

Catt

	18-11-2003 04:21									#21
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I am not worried much about ancient age SGL's either, I have yet to get one that early. It is the industrial age that you can have a death grip on the tech lead and be the only one likely to get one, especially if you are Scientfic (as I was). You get the cascade effect going and I got two very close together. You toss in the 6 or so MGL's I had and that is why I felt they were strong.

At that stage, I did not need them, as I had my third city with IW and my capitol that could crank out wonders faste than the AI.
They were not going to get any SGL's, so they were dead for wonders from then on.

	18-11-2003 04:31									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth Are these showing up late in the game? How are you getting so far ahead in research?

I can't remember if I got one in the middle ages, but I think not. I think they came after that.

Same was as always, take over more land than anyone else, make good use of tiles and workers. Being Scientific, I got the cheap universities and made them and Libs a priority. Put as much into research as I could bare, often running a loss.

Liberal use of armies afforded my the opportunity to get more land. I had the Mayans near me and they had a lot desert tiles, so it made their life harsh. If was sad for them, the whole contient had one tile of marsh and a large patch of desert and they got most of it. The Inca's werer on their other side and they also squeezed them. In fact they were top dog for a lot time. They were down to 3 cities and still were in second place, must have had a ton of culture.

	18-11-2003 05:16									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth I'm disgruntled to see that the Carthaginians have NOT been toned down... if anything, they seem like a greater threat now.

Slightly OT, but why do you think that they have not been toned down? The industrious trait has been weakened, and I am not convinced that the value of the seafaring trait is an improvement over the commercial trait. In fact, I might be prepared to make the argument (how's that for a definitive view ) that the seafaring trait's propensity to start near coast, which offers less opportunity for shields, combined with a high-shield-cost early unit, means the trait switch has also resulted in a toning-down of the civ (especially in the hands of the AI which seems to have trouble exploiting the seafaring trait early by building curraghs).

Catt

	18-11-2003 05:41									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Thoth they're rare, I've only seen 3 so far. But 2 in one ancient era is a little too much.

IMHO, SGLs should be capped at a max of 1 per era to limit the effect of chance.

	18-11-2003 20:54									#25
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quote: Originally posted by RobC IMHO, SGLs should be capped at a max of 1 per era to limit the effect of chance.

Forget that! I've yet to see one! When I get them, I want like 4 or 5 in a row just to make up for all the techs I've gotten first and had nothing to show for them!

	19-11-2003 00:44									#26
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Uh, dont complain about SGL's extreme powers. I havent myself seen one in my games, even tho i have played 4 C3C games to end and about 10 games to the end of Middle Ages.

I purposely played yesterday one game with quite easy difficulty (Monarch) and was in tech lead and first to research almost all techs after Anicent Ages -> Not a single SGL appeared. Even i used Byzantines who are Scientific !

Altough i got about 10 Military leaders in that game and had 6 or 7 armies running around, but not a single SGL

	19-11-2003 01:24									#27
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It's kind of funny, but I don't remember anyone complaining about MGLs being too powerful when they could rush a wonder. I've gotten a couple SGLs early in the game and I've also had games where I researched many many techs first only to get my first SGL in the late Industrial era.

	19-11-2003 02:18									#28
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quote: I am not convinced that they are any more imablancing than GLs under PTW was.

They aren't. The issue is really the rushing of GW's with GLs of any kind, really.

I've gotten the Pyramids ridiculously early in PTW due to a MGL... often because I deliberately played for it. Early archer warfare, gunning for GLs/tribute, not conquest. That too was extremely powerful... but then again I *did* have to invest early production in barracks & archers.

Anyway, I'm not really complaining either way. I don't actually mind the idea of me getting a SGL in 3000bc and rushing the Pyramids with it. In SP at least.

-Arrian

	19-11-2003 03:07									#29
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I think you can make a case that there is a difference in GL in PTW and SGL now. At levels of Monarch and down, I would say ther is no real distinction. At Emp it may be iffy after that it starts to change. The handicap will tend to assure the AI beating you to all tech for the first two ages, with a few exceptions.

This means you will be shut out from SGL for some time. In PTW you all have more or less the same chance and tactics to get a GL and the level makes only a minor difference. IOW you are not shut out.

	19-11-2003 03:13									#30
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Good point, that.

-Arrian