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korn469
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Poetic Justic
Apr 1999
time: 00:32
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I got my hands on conquests a week or so, and I've played it some, and I've had some fun so far. However, I think it's time to update the Blitz Mod. All of the work I've done on the various versions of the Blitz Mod has helped me to create a Blitz Mod philosophy which is:
*Combat should be interesting, it should emphasize combined arms, strategy, and planning. While combat should involve some uncertainty, better preparation should lead to victory.
*Culture should have an increased role in the game, and winning a cultural victory should take strategy.
*Scarcity and limited resources will help make the choices in the game harder, and this will increase the strategic depth of Civ3.
*Military aggression should have repercussions, and it shouldn't always be the easiest answer.
*Units balance should be a priority.
*Unique Units should be more powerful than normal units, but all UU's should have the same impact on the game.
*The governments should all have strengths and weaknesses, and should exhibit balance as well.
*Nothing should come easy.
*Don't be afraid to experiment, and hopefully push the editors to its limits.
That's what guides me, and I try to stay loyal to those principles. Here is the readme, broken down by editor tabs, of what I've finished editing so far. As I complete more sections I'll add them to the readme.
__________________________
Conquests Blitz Mod Readme
__________________________
General Settings Changes
*Chance of Rioting is now 50%
*Citizen value in shields is now 25
*Minimum population for we love the king day is now 7
*Future Tech Cost now 500
*Minimum Research Time now 1 turn
*Cities Needed to Support an Army now 3
*Chance to Intercept Enemy Air Missions now 75%
*Chance to Intercept Enemy Stealth Missions now 4%
*Fortification Defense Bonus now 50%
*Town Defense Bonus now 50%
*City Defense Bonus now 100%
*Metro Defense Bonus now 150%
*Citizen Defensive Bonus now 12
*Building Defensive Bonus now 12
*Basic Barbarian is now a Swordsman
*Advanced Barbarian is now a Knight
__________________________
Changes to Governments
Anarchy
0 police
1/1/1 1 support
0 draft
tile penalty
no building upkeep
high war weariness
1 worker rate
0 assimilation
catastrophic corruption
conscript spies
immune to build embassy
Despotism
2 police (4 citizens quelled)
3/3/3 1 support
2 draft
tile penalty
no war weariness
1 worker rate
forced labor
0 assimilation
rampant corruption
regular spies
Republic
0 police
0/0/0 3 support +20 free units
1 draft
high war weariness
trade bonus
2 worker rate
paid labor
2 assimilation
problematic corruption
regular spies
Monarchy
1 police (2 citizens quelled)
2/3/4 2 support
2 draft
low war weariness
2 worker rate
paid labor
1 assimilation
problematic corruption
regular spies
Feudalism
2 police (4 citizens quelled)
4/1/0 3 support
2 draft
no war weariness
1 worker rate
forced labor
0 assimilation
communal corruption
regular spies
Democracy
0 police
1/2/3 2 support
1 draft
high war weariness
trade bonus
3 worker rate
paid labor
5 assimilation
minimal corruption
regular spies
immune to propaganda
Communism
2 police (4 citizens quelled)
2/2/2 1 support
3 draft
no building upkeep
no war weariness
4 worker rate
cannot hurry
3 assimilation
communal corruption
elite spies
immune to investigate city
Fascism
3 police (6 citizens quelled)
3/4/6 3 support
3 draft
no war weariness
trade bonus
3 worker rate
forced labor
0 assimilation
nuisance corruption
regular spies
immune to tech steal
__________________________
Changes to Terrain
*Removed defensive terrain bonus for all terrain types with a 10% bonus. Left all others unchanged.
*Jungle changed to 1.1.0
*Mountains changed to 0.2.0
*Tundra changed to 0.1.0
*Marsh changed to 0.2.0
*Jungle move cost changed to 4
*Mountain’s move cost changed to 4
*Marsh's move cost changed to 3
*Sea’s move cost changed to 2
*Ocean’s move cost changed to 2
*Ocean is now impassable to wheeled units
__________________________
Changes to Citizens
*Scientist now come with Education
*Tax Collector now provides 3 taxes and come with Currency
__________________________
Changes to Civilization Advances
*Bronze Working, Masonry, Alphabet, Pottery, The Wheel, Warrior Code, and Ceremonial Burial cannot be traded
*Horseback Riding is now an optional tech
*Gunpowder now has Education as a prereq in addition to invention
*Economics is now a required tech
*Printing Press now provides a free tech to the first civ to discover it
*Advanced Flight is now a required tech
*Moved Mutual Protection Pacts from Nationalism to Espionage
*Combined Communism and Fascism into a single tech called Totalitarianism, which provides police stations, and the governments communism and fascism
*Created a new tech called antiquities, that has atomic theory as a prerequisit and provides museums
*Amphibious warfare prerequisit is now combustion
*Motorized Transport no longer requires electronics
*Advanced Flight no longer requires motorized transport
__________________________
Changes to Combat Experience
Conscript 3hp 35% retreat
Regular 4hp 50% retreat
Veteran 6hp 60% retreat
Elite 9hp 75% retreat
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Changes to Difficulty Level
*Military units now quell two unhappy citizens on all levels
*Attack bonus against barbarians reduced to 100% for chieftain, and removed at all other difficulty levels.
*All difficulty levels except for chieftain have one less default happy citizen (note: emperor and above start out with 0 default happy citizens)
__________________________
Last edited by korn469 on 18-12-2003 at 08:19
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korn469
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Poetic Justic
Apr 1999
time: 00:32
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here are some raw readme files, this is subject to changes, especially the units
Changes to Units
Non-combat Units
Settler 0.0.1 50/3 {Colonist}
*Colonist 0.0.2 50/3 Navigation
Worker 0.0.1 10/1 {Engineer}
*Engineer 0.0.1 10/1 (all terrain as roads) Steam Power
Scout 0.0.2 10 (invisible, hidden nationality, free upkeep) {Conquistador}
Chasqui Scout 1.1.2 10 (imc: hills, mountains) {Scout}
Explorer 0.0.2 20 (invisible, hidden nationality, free upkeep) Astronomy
**Conquistador 4.2.2 40 (invisible, all terrain as roads, blitz, zoc) horses Astronomy {Explorer}
**Army 0.0.2|3 150 (blitz, zoc, pillage, radar +6 hp)
Ancient Land Units
Warrior 2.1.1 20 {Legion}
Enkidu Warrior
Jaguar Warrior 2.1.2 20 (imc: forest, jungle) {Warrior}
Archer 3.1.1 20 {Bezerk}
Bowman 3.2.1 20 {Archer}
Javelineer 4.1.1 20 (enslave) {Bowman}
Swordsman 4.2.1 30 iron {Medieval Infantry}
Gallic Swordsman 5.2.2 40 iron {Swordsman}
Immortal 4.2.1 20 (-1 hp) iron {Gallic Swordsman}
Legion 4.2.1 30 (+2 hp) iron {Immortal}
Spearman 2.2.1 20 {Pikeman}
Hoplite 2.3.1 20 {Spearman}
Impi 2.2.2 20 {Hoplite}
Numideon Mercenary 3.4.1 30 (free upkeep) {Impi}
Chariot 3.1.2 30 (wheeled, zoc) horses {Mounted Warrior}
Three Man Chariot
War Chariot 3.1.2 30 (wheeled, zoc, +2 hp) horses {Chariot}
Horseman 3.1.3 40 (zoc) horses {War Elephant}
Mounted Warrior 3.1.3 40 (blitz, zoc, +1 hp) horses {Horseman}
Middle Age Land Units
Longbowman 7.2.1 40 {Musketeer}
Bezerk 12.4.1 60 (Amphibious, +1 hp) {Longbowman}
Medieval Infantry 8.5.1 50 iron {Rifleman} Chivalry
Pikeman 5.5.1 40 {Musketeer}
Swiss Mercenary 5.8.1 40 {Pikeman}
Musketman 11.11.1 60/1 saltpeter {Rifleman}
Musketeer 14.14.1 60/1 saltpeter {Musketman}
Knight 8.4.2 60 (zoc) iron, horses {Siphai}
Ansar Warrior 9.3.2 50 (blitz, zoc) iron, horses {Knight}
Keshik 8.2.2 40 (imc: mountains, hills, zoc) horses {Ansar Warrior}
Rider 8.4.3 60 (zoc) iron, horses {Keshik}
Samurai 8.6.2 60 (zoc) iron {Rider}
War Elephant 14.10.1 80 (zoc) {Samurai}
Cavalry 15.6.3 80/1 (zoc) horses, saltpeter {Panzer}
Cossack 15.8.4 (zoc) horses, saltpeter {Cavalry}
Siphai 22.6.3 80/1 (zoc) horses, saltpeter {Cossack}
Industrial Era Land Units
Guerrilla 4.1.3 15/1/3 10/2 (invisible, hidden nationality, lethal land bombardment, -3 hp, free upkeep, imc:all) Replaceable parts
Marine 30.15.2 120/1 (amphibious, zoc) rubber
Paratrooper 25.20.2 120/1 (10 air drop range, zoc) rubber
Rifleman 15.15.2 80/1 {Infantry}
Infantry 20.20.2 100/1 rubber
Tank 40.16.3 140/1 (wheeled, blitz, zoc, cannot airlift) iron, oil {Modern Armor}
Panzer 40.16.4 140/1 (wheeled, blitz, zoc, cannot airlift, +1hp, imc:forest) iron, oil {Tank}
Modern Land Units
*Special Forces 40.20.4 150 (amphibious, invisible, see invisible, 10 air drop range, blitz, -4 hp, imc:all) Computers
Tow Infantry 25.25.2 120|1 Computers
Mech Infantry 40.40.4 160/1 (wheeled, blitz, zoc, cannot airlift) iron, oil, rubber Miniturization
Modern Armor 60.20.4 180/1 (wheeled, blitz, zoc, cannot airlift) iron, oil, aluminum
Seige
Catapult 0.1.1 8/1/4 40 (wheeled) iron {Cannon}
Trebuchet
Cannon 0.1.1 18/1/6 80 (wheeled) iron, saltpeter {Artillary}
Hwacha 0.1.1 24/1/6 80 (wheeled) saltpeter
Artillary 0.2.2 25/2/8 120 (helicopter transportable) iron
Radar Artillary 0.2.3 30/2/5 160 (wheeled, blitz, cannot airlift) aluminum, oil
Missile
Cruise Missile 0.0.1 60 40/5/2 (leathal land, leathal sea, can load into Aegis Cruisers and nuclear subs) aluminum
Tactical Nuke 0.0.1 180 10 aluminum, uranium
ICBM 0.0.1 250 aluminum, uranium
Ancient Naval Units
Curragh
Galley 2.2.4 30|2 (wheeled, sink in sea, sink in ocean) {Sloop}
Dromon
Middle Age Naval Units
*Sloop 5.3.5 50 (sink in ocean, imc: sea) {Man-o-War} Astronomy
Caravel 2.3.4 60|3 (-1 hp, sink in ocean, imc: sea) {Galleon}
Carrack
Galleon 2.3.5 80|4 (-1 hp, imc: sea, ocean) {Transport}
Frigate 12.9.2 12/1/1 100 (all terrain as roads, blitz) {Ironclad}
Man-o-War 16.12.2 12/1/1 100 (all terrain as roads, blitz)
Privateer 8.2.7 40 (hidden nationality, imc: sea, ocean) Navigation
Industrial Era Naval Units
Ironclad 20.16.3 20/1/1 120 (all terrain as roads, blitz) iron, coal Steel {Battleship}
Transport 2.5.8 100 (-1 hp, imc: sea, ocean) oil
Battleship 48.38.3 30/2/2 240 (all terrain as roads, blitz) iron, coal, oil
Destroyer 16.26.4 16/1/1 120 (all terrain as roads, blitz) oil {Aegis Cruiser}
Submarine 16.6.3 120 (all terrain as roads, blitz, invisible, detect invisible)
Aircraft Carrier 2.8.3 200|5 (all terrain as roads, blitz, radar) iron, rubber Advanced Flight
Modern Naval Units
Nuclear Sub 16.20.3 180|3 (all terrain as roads, blitz, invisible, detect invisible)
Aegis Cruiser 25.35.4 25/1/1 160|2 (all terrain as roads, blitz, radar, detect invisible, *transport cruise missiles) aluminum, oil
Industrial Era Air Units
Fighter 5.5.2 25/6/2 120 (blitz, lethal sea bombard, *foot soldier) oil {F-15}
Bomber 0.2.1 20/10/6 150 oil, rubber {Jet Bomber}
Helicopter 0.2.3 0/6/0 100 oil, rubber
Modern Air Units
Jet Fighter 20.20.3 35/8/2 180 (blitz, radar, lethal sea bombard) aluminum, oil
F-15 30.30.3 35/8/2 180 (blitz, radar, lethal sea bombard, precision strike, *foot soldier) aluminum, oil {Jet Fighter}
*Jet Bomber 0.6.2 30/14/6 220 (blitz, radar) aluminum, oil Rocketry
Stealth Fighter 0.1.2 32/12/4 250 (blitz, stealth, radar, precision strike) aluminum, oil, uranium
Stealth Bomber 0.1.1 65/120/10 450 (stealth, radar, precision strike) aluminum, oil, uranium
__________________________
Changes to Diplomats and Spies
*Build an Embassy cost 15
*Investigate City cost 5
*Steal Technology cost 8
*Steal World Map cost 1
*Plant Spy cost 45
*Steal Plans cost 5
*Initiate Propaganda cost 60
*Sabotage Production cost 8
*Expose Enemy Mole cost 60
__________________________
Changes to Culture
In awe of
Culture Ratio 5:1
Chance of Successful Propaganda: 60%
Initial Resistance Chance: 20%
Continued Resistance Chance: 10%
Admirers of
Culture Ratio 3:1
Chance of Successful Propaganda: 45%
Initial Resistance Chance: 35%
Continued Resistance Chance: 25%
Impressed with
Culture Ratio 5:4
Chance of Successful Propaganda: 30%
Initial Resistance Chance: 50%
Continued Resistance Chance: 40%
On par with
Culture Ratio 4:5
Chance of Successful Propaganda: 25%
Initial Resistance Chance: 60%
Continued Resistance Chance: 55%
Unimpressed by
Culture Ratio 1:3
Chance of Successful Propaganda: 15%
Initial Resistance Chance: 75%
Continued Resistance Chance: 70%
Dismissive of
Culture Ratio 1:5
Chance of Successful Propaganda: 5%
Initial Resistance Chance: 90%
Continued Resistance Chance: 85%
Disdainful of
Culture Ratio 1:10
Chance of Successful Propaganda: 1%
Initial Resistance Chance: 100%
Continued Resistance Chance: 98%
__________________________
Changes to Improvements and Wonders
Improvements
Capital
Palace 100/1/0 Center of Empire, +1 Happy
Happiness
Temple 60/1/1 +1 Happy (Religious)
Coliseum 120/2/2 +2 Happy
Cathedral 160/2/2 +3 Happy [Temple] (Religious)
Economic
Marketplace 100/0/1 +50% Tax Output, Increases Luxury Trade (Commercial)
Bank 150/0/3 +50% Tax Output [Marketplace] (Commercial)
*Stock Exchange 220/0/4 +50% Tax Output [Bank] (Commercial) The Corporation
Trade
Harbor 80/0/1 Allows Water Trade, Increases Food in Water (Commercial, Coastal)
Air Port 160/0/2 Allows Air Trade, +50% Luxury Output 1 Pollution {Oil} (Commercial)
Military
Walls 20/0/0 +50% Defense, 12 Bombard Defense (Militaristic)
Coastal Fortress 40/0/1 16 Naval Power, 12 Naval Bombard Defense {Iron, Saltpeter} (Militaristic, Coastal)
Barracks 80/0/2 Veteran Ground Units (Militaristic) Warrior Code
*Naval Base 120/0/3 Veteran Sea Units [Harbor] (Militaristic, Coastal) Astronomy
*Airforce Installation 160/0/4 Veteran Air Units {Oil} (Militaristic) Flight
SAM Missile Battery 120/0/2 Airpower 12 (Militaristic)
Production
*Mill 160/0/2 +25% Production, Must be Near a River; Engineering
Factory 240/0/4 +50% Production, 2 Pollution {Iron}
Manufacturing Plant 320/0/5 +50% Production, 1 Pollution [Factory] {Aluminum}
Coal Plant 160/0/4 +50% Production, 3 Pollution [Factory] {Coal}
Hydro Plant 240/0/4 +50% Production, Must be Near a River [Factory] {Iron}
Solar Plant 320/0/4 +50% Production [Factory] {Rubber}
Nuclear Plant 240/0/4 +100% Production, 1 Pollution, Must be Near Water, Can Explode or Meltdown [Factory] {Uranium}
Offshore Platform 240/0/3 Increases Shields in Water, 2 Pollution (Coastal)
Research
Library 80/1/1 +50% Research Output (Scientific) Writing
University 200/3/3 +50% Research Output [Library] (Scientific)
Research Lab 240/1/4 +50% Research Output [University] (Scientific)
Corruption
Courthouse 80/1/1 Reduces Corruption
*Newspaper 120/1/2 Reduces Corruption, Resistant to Propaganda [Library] Printing Press
Police Station 180/1/2 Reduces Corruption, Reduces War Weariness [Courthouse]
Growth
Granary 60/0/1 Doubles City Growth Rate
Aqueduct 100/0/1 Allows City Size Level 2
Hospital 160/0/2 Allows City Size Level 3
Pollution
Mass Transit 200/0/3 Removes Population Pollution {Rubber}
Recycling Center 200/0/3 Removes Building Pollution
Cultural
*Amphitheater 80/3/1 Literature
*Opera 160/8/2 [Amphitheater] Music Theory
*Museum 240/14/4 [Opera] Atomic Theory
**Obelisk 0/2/0 cannot be built only appears through the Pyramids
__________________________
Wonders
Happiness
Hanging Gardens 300/4/0 3 happy, 1 happy in all cities expires with Steam Power {Ind}
Oracle 300/4/0 [2x Temple] Doubles happiness of temples expires with Theology {Rel}
Sistine Chapel 600/6/0 [2x Cathedral] Doubles happiness of Cathedrals {Rel}
JS Bach's Cathedral 600/6/0 [2x Cathedral] 2 happy, 2 happy in all cities expires with Genetics {Rel, Con}
Cure for Cancer 1000/8/0 [2x Research Lab] 6 happy, 2 happy in all cities {Sci}
Economic
Colossus 200/2/0 +1 trade in all trade producing squares expires with Mass Production {Ex, Com, Coastal)
Wall Street 300/1/0 [4x Stock Exchange] Treasury Earns 5% {Com}
Trade
Great Lighthouse 300/2/0 [2x Harbor] Safe Sea Travel, +1 Ship Movement expires with Magnetism {Exp, Com, Coa}
Magellan's Voyage [2x Harbor] 400/3/0 +1 Ship Movement expires with Nuclear Power {Exp, Com, Coa}
Smith's Trading Company 600/4/0 Pays Maintenance for trade Installations {Com}
Military
Great Wall 200/2/0 Doubles combat vs. Barbs, Doubles City Defense expires with Metallurgy {Mil, Ind}
Sun Tzu's Art of War 600/3/0 Barracks in every city on the continent expires with Motorized Transport{Mil}
Leonardo's Workshop 600/3/0 Halves upgrade cost {Mil}
Universal Suffrage 900/4/0 Reduces war weariness in all cities {Mil}
Manhattan Project 800/2/0 [2x University] Allows all civs to build Nukes {Mil, Sci, Ind} Uranium
Heroic Epic 200/4/0 Increased chance of leaders, Requires a victorious army expires with Military Tradition {Mil, Rel} (note: The Heroic Epic is now a great wonder)
Military Academy 400/1/0 Build armies without leaders {Mil} (note: victorious army requirement removed)
Pentagon 400/1/0 Build larger armies, requires 4 armies, requires a victorious army {Mil}
Strategic Missile Defense 800/1/0 [5x SAM batteries] Decreased chance of missile attacks {Mil, Sci}
Intelligence Agency 400/1/0 Allows spy missions {Mil, Sci}
Battlefield Medicine 500/1/0 [5x Hospital] Healing in enemy territory {Mil}
Production
Hoover Dam 1200/3/0 gain hydro plant in every city on continent, must be near a river {Ind}
Iron Works 400/1/0 +100% production, 4 pollution, requires coal and iron in city radius {Ind}
Research
Great Library 400/4/0 [2x Library] Gain any advances owned by two civs expires with Education {Sci}
Copernicus's Observatory 400/4/0 doubles research output expires with Space Flight {Exp, Sci}
Newton's University 500/5/0 [2x University] doubles research output {Sci}
Theory of Evolution 600/6/0 +2 free advances {Sci}
SETI Program 1200/8/0 [3x University] doubles research output {Sci, Exp}
Apollo Program 500/3/0 build spaceship parts {Sci, Ind} Aluminum
Corruption
Forbidden Palace 150/1/0 reduces corruption {Exp, Rel}
Growth
Longevity 1200/8/0 [2x research Lab] city growth causes +2 pop {Sci, Exp}
Pollution
N/A
Cultural
Pyramids 200/4/0 gives an obelisk in each city on the continent expires with Monotheism {Ind, Rel}
Shakespeare's Theater 400/16/0 [2x Opera] 2 happy, +50% Luxury Output
United Nations 1200/15/0 Allows diplomatic victory {Exp, Com}
__________________________
Space Ship Parts
SS Thrusters 600 Aluminum
SS Engine 1200 Aluminum, Uranium
SS Docking Bay 300 Oil, Rubber
SS Cockpit 600 Aluminum
SS Fuel Cells 300 Uranium, Rubber
SS Life Support System 600 Aluminum
SS Stasis Chamber 600 Aluminum
SS Storage/Supply 300 Oil, Rubber
SS Planetary Party Lounge 300 Oil, Rubber
SS Exterior Casing 1200 Aluminum, Uranium
__________________________
Changes to Resources
*All strategic resources set to have a disappearance rate of 900
*Uranium's Appearance ratio changed from 100 to 80
*Oil can now be in plains
*Game can now be in jungle
*moved appearance of uranium to atomic theory
*moved appearance of aluminum to mass production
__________________________
Last edited by korn469 on 23-11-2003 at 16:37
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bigvic
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Columbia, S.C.
Nov 2001
time: 00:32
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add lots of moderm units, like all thosewwii and others - ai does kool things when given lots of options that change frequently as a result of new techs.
example - i modded the crap out of teturkhan, reassigning all those animations, creating a situation where beginning in early/mid industrial age thgimgs start hoppin in terms o units made available by techs. i did things like give fantasy modern uus to some of the added ai civs, and some units were only buildable for a couple of researh tech periods. thats ok, cause low upgrade price made it kool and ai friendly, and since the upgraded version was only marginally superior, so what? it felt more realistic, better for a almost modern era assault infantry, feprersented by the at animation, fight a wwi era machinew gunner, repped by the same named unit. i had to monkey w/ the tech tree to do this.
in the mod i'm doing now, i plan to add some more techs to lengthen certain, esp the industrial, age. now i get all those kool napoleonic animations to monkey with. nice
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korn469
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Poetic Justic
Apr 1999
time: 00:32
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TechWins,
Culture only buildings are a big part of the Blitz Mod so I'm going to leave them in. Though I'm thinking of changing the Amphitheater to 50/2/1, and then possibly changing the colliseum's cultural value to 1, so that Amphitheaters would still be the most potent culture producing improvement in the ancient era.
Point taken about engineers and colonists, I think I'll go with you and drop them. 
As far as hit points go I'm not changing them. 3-4-6-9 is the first 2hp heal plateua. Anything lower means they only heal 1hp per turn. Because of that, anything between normal civ3 and 3-4-6-9 takes too long for units to recover imo. Also with the changes in hps vet and elite units are worth more, which coresponds directly to military building that are more expensive. Your point about bombard units being less effective doesn't hold true, since I've increased RoF.
I may or may not keep the mill. If I do I'll make it go obsolete with steam power.
Monarchy does have low war weariness (feudalism doesn't), and Republic out supports it untill you have either 11 towns or 7 cities. Though if republic is too weak I could always increase the free units from 20 to 25.
Lockstep,
Neat suggestion. I think I'll do that, except move Police Stations to Fascism and Museums to Communism (which to me makes more sense). I'm also thinking of giving democracy a small wonder called Bill of Rights that provides 2 happiness in all cities to counterbalance the power of both communism and fascism.
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lockstep
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Vienna, Austria
Aug 2001
time: 06:32
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Korn, I'm currently drafting a little mod called 'Cultural Dominance'. The idea is to add culture only-buildings and (for aesthetic reasons) symmetric cultural levels, but besides that leave the epic game as it is. Some thoughts:- I won't mess with cultural values of Great and Small Wonders (ranging from 1 to 8),
- I will slightly reduce the cultural values of scientific buildings and of the colosseum (but not mess with temples because players are used to the 5-turn border expansion),
- Amphitheatre, Opera and Museum will have cultural values of either 4/5/6 or 4/6/8 (so that the Museum is at most on par with Shakespeare's), with appropriately balanced shield costs.
So I'd be interested in your reasoning for amplifying the cultural value of the new buildings up to 14 in the blitz mod (which, at least to me, would strongly favor a 'cultural dominance' strategy), but also upping the culture of most Great Wonders (which somewhat counters said strategy).
P.S.: The reason I want to attach Museums to Fascism is to change as little as possible. 
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lockstep
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Vienna, Austria
Aug 2001
time: 06:32
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quote:
Originally posted by korn469
Because of uneven turns per year, early cheaper structures can outproduce new cultural structures on a per shield basis if you build them quick enough ... Does that make sense? |
If you build an amphitheater 'quick enough' - say, after beelining to Literature - your cities will be typically size 6 or lower, perhaps save your capital. Building a museum should typically take place in cities of about size 12 and with higher production (perhaps no factories yet, but at least some railroads). So, I'd be perfectly willing to spend more shields per culture point simply because I have more shields.
BTW, if you're really worried about the low shields-per-culture ratio of ancient buildings, you'd also have to make drastically changes to cathedrals (80 SPC) vs. culture-doubled temples (30 SPC) and universities vs. libraries.
quote:
In my system a strong empire could turn to culture later on and surpass a civ that started strong culturally then switched to another strategy (without needing to burn down all of the enemy's cities). |
While I generally agree with you, I wouldn't want to enable a strategy to get your culture up and running really late - say, in the mid-industrial age - and still be able to surpass a civ that started their culture buildings much earlier. And I suspect that your Museum's massive cultural value does exactly that. OTOH, I need to do some more thorough calculations.
P.S.: I noticed this just now - what's the point of giving cultural value to anti-corruption buildings, at least gameplay-wise?
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korn469
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Poetic Justic
Apr 1999
time: 00:32
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lockstep,
quote:
If you build an amphitheater 'quick enough' - say, after beelining to Literature - your cities will be typically size 6 or lower, perhaps save your capital. Building a museum should typically take place in cities of about size 12 and with higher production (perhaps no factories yet, but at least some railroads). So, I'd be perfectly willing to spend more shields per culture point simply because I have more shields. |
also remember at this point it takes longer and longer for cultural expansion to occur
quote:
While I generally agree with you, I wouldn't want to enable a strategy to get your culture up and running really late - say, in the mid-industrial age - and still be able to surpass a civ that started their culture buildings much earlier. |
this is only a worry if one civ stops building cultural buildings and the other doesn't. if a civ has a lead and continues to build cultural buildings it will be hard to catch up. also museums require both amphitheaters and opera's so that also slows done cultural laggards from catching up as quickly
quote:
I noticed this just now - what's the point of giving cultural value to anti-corruption buildings, at least gameplay-wise? |
two reasons
1. I consider buildings such as courthouses etc, a powerful tool of political socialization, which in Civ terms (imo) is one of the components of culture. Because of that it should fall under culture buildings. Additionally it lowers the relative cultural value for science and happiness buildings.
2. It slows down war mongering. The cities you take over take longer to get back up to speed.
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korn469
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Poetic Justic
Apr 1999
time: 00:32
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lockstep,
You've given me some ideas about the cultural side of the game. Here's what I'm thinking...
Amphitheater 60/5/4
Opera 120/12/9
Museum 180/20/14
You bring up some good points, including relative value of culture only buildings, and oppertunity costs for a culture strategy. I think that the best way to provide for oppertunity costs is through building upkeep. To have all three cultural buildings in a single city would cost 27 upkeep, or as 1.5 times much as all of the other cultural buildings combined. What do you think of that?
edit:
also i think it is possible to do this...make each opera require two amphitheaters, then make each amphitheater require two operas, so there would only be a few truly outstanding cultural centers
Last edited by korn469 on 22-11-2003 at 05:26
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TechWins
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Arizona
Apr 2001
time: 22:32
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quote:
As far as hit points go I'm not changing them. |
Yeah, I forgot to take into consideration that you have all of the values of units changed. Second time I overlooked other changes like I did with the cultural buildings.
Regarding that: I like how you have some of the values changed, because they create better ratios. However, there can be a large descrepancy in some parts. For instance the Swordsmen has a 4/2 ratio to the Spearman instead of 4/3. This puts even more demand on resources, and if you are the unfortunate civ to not have any iron around you're basically ****ed. You better hope that you can get to Feudalism quick enough to get pikemen to defend. Also, looking at the Numedian Mercenary it is way too strong.
Numideon Mercenary 3.4.1 30 (free upkeep)
No unit in the ancient age has a better attack compared to their defence. Then they still have a good attack. Plus with them being free in upkeep you can build them in masses without any side effects. The 30 shield cost is moot compared to the advantages of this unit.
A little side note about the NM: Why is it that everyone feels they should be that much stronger than the Hoplite, Impi, and Spearman?
Now to the early middle ages units:
Longbowman 7.2.1 40 {Musketeer}
Bezerk 12.4.1 60 (Amphibious, +1 hp) {Longbowman}
Knight 8.4.2 60 (zoc) iron, horses {Siphai}
Pikeman 5.5.1 40 {Musketeer}
Musketman 11.11.1 60/1 saltpeter {Rifleman}
Since you have it required for Gunpowder to req. Education, Gunpowder is out of the mix for the early middle ages units. Which leaves the Pikeman and Medieval Infantry (5 def) (or Swiss Mercenary at 8 def) as the best possible defending unit for a long time. What does this mean... It means you won't have an oppurtunity for a 1/1 att/def ratio until you can gain access to Musketman which will take a while to get to. So with Longbowman being cheap at 40 shields you can get rushed by tons of these with them having the edge at a 7/5 ratio. Then if you happen to be the misfortunate civ facing the Vikings you're gone. A 12/5 ratio is what you'll be faced with. Plus there is, also, the Knight at 8.4.2 with a lower cost of 60 shields. With all of that into consideration the early middle ages is extremely unbalanced.
I only looked at the early middle ages and ancient age, but just by looking at that it seems to me that the units need a lot of rebalancing. I would suggest going back to the regular values then making small changes from there. I don't think I'm oversighting anything this time, either.
quote:
I may or may not keep the mill. If I do I'll make it go obsolete with steam power. |
Granted there are extra buildings to be built now that require you to have better production. However, giving civs the amount of production needed to build all those buildings takes away some of the strategy. Not having the extra production leaves you with a bigger decision on which buildings are most important to build. It sort of dumbs down the game in a way I think.
quote:
Monarchy does have low war weariness (feudalism doesn't), and Republic out supports it untill you have either 11 towns or 7 cities. Though if republic is too weak I could always increase the free units from 20 to 25. |
The thing with Republic is in order to benefit more from the trade bonus you should have more cities, however, the corruption level counter effects that as does the limited amount of free unit support. So in a sense the low unit support and high corruption counter the benefits of the trade bonus. Then you are left between two choices, excluding Feudalism: take Monarchy which is more beneficial for larger civs with it's lower corruption and better unit support or take Republic with a trade bonus that is countered by it's higher corruption and poor unit support. Monarchy has no ww and Republic has high ww. The choice seems easy to me. I would recommend swapping the Republic's corruption with Monarchy's courrption level. Then giving Republic a 1/2/2 free unit support with 0 free units. That way a city in a Republic can support as many cities as a Monarchy town can.
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korn469
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Poetic Justic
Apr 1999
time: 00:32
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Tech Wins,
I think that you may be right about UU balance. One of the trickiest thing is adding in the relative value of special effects such as free upkeep, and the benefits of maintaing the same ratios but uping ths shield cost. I really do need to go an reevaluate them.
However, as far as normal units go, have you taken the following things into consideration.
1) Most terrains no longer have a defense bonus.
2) Fortifying a unit now provides a 50% instead of 25% defense bonus.
3) Towns have a 50% defense bonus, Cities have a 100% defense bonus, and Metros have a 150% defense bonus.
So a 20 shield spearman fortified inside a town has a defense value of 4. A spearman fortified inside of either a walled town or a city would have a defense of 5. Also with chariots, horsemen, and spearmen all being able to counter swordsmen if they get a chance to attack them, there really is a good deal of strategy on the ancient battlefield.
Same goes for pikemen. A 40 shield pikeman has 7.5 defense if it fortifies, 10 defense if it fortifies inside of a town, and 12.5 defense if it fortifies inside a walled town or city. Although a Berzerk does have an offense of 12 it also costs 50% more than a pikeman.
Basically on the battlefield offense has an advantage, but when it comes to cracking cities (at all levels) open it will take either brute force, or a well planned seige, which requires the effective use of bombard units.
Does that change any of your unit arguments? If not what specific changes would you suggest?
I didn't thinking adding the mill would be a big deal, but I'm not that attached to it, so dropping it isn't a problem.
Monarchy does have low war weariness. Check both the quote, and the government description. Feudalism doesn't have war weariness, but Monarchy does. If Monarchy seems to have too much of an advantage over republic then I am in favor of dropping Monarchy down to the same corruption level as republic and upping republic's total free units to 25. However, I am not going to change from a free global units to free units by cities for republic. I think that it should fill the niche of the smaller sized builder civ. In certain cases for extremely small civs, republic would have an advantage over democracy throughout the game.
Despotism -> poor starting government, focused on war
Republic -> small builder civs
Monarchy -> good all around average government, doesn't excel at anything, but doesn't have many weaknesses
Feudalism -> great for sprawling, undeveloped war mongering civs
Democracy -> best all around builder government
Fascism -> best government for late wars
Communism -> fairly unique, suitable for just about anything
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TechWins
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Arizona
Apr 2001
time: 22:32
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quote:
I think that you may be right about UU balance. One of the trickiest thing is adding in the relative value of special effects such as free upkeep, and the benefits of maintaing the same ratios but uping ths shield cost. I really do need to go an reevaluate them. |
I agree that it is very tricky to balance UUs. You have to take a lot into consideration when giving values to UUs. Non-ground units, also, should be given more of a bonus than ground units are given. UU ground units are lot better to have than a UU naval unit or air unit. Since naval and air units are less viable they should be given a bigger bonus. Early ground units shouldn't have too much of a bonus, such as the Numideon Mercenary. Since any sort of extra advantage in the early part of the game is more appearant than in the later game. It can be complicated trying to figure in all the factors for a UU; that's for sure.
quote:
Basically on the battlefield offense has an advantage, but when it comes to cracking cities (at all levels) open it will take either brute force, or a well planned seige, which requires the effective use of bombard units. |
That's exactly why I think that a 2/1 ratio for att/def is too much for units around the same period of time. I like the fact that in order to take down a city you're going to have to have lots of units and/or lots of bomarding. I think it forces you to make better decisions when attacking. Plus I think, when it's easy to obtain a 2/1 att/def advantage, that the human can easily take more advantage of this than the AI could. I just like the idea of having to plan more for a battle when you know it's closer to a 1/1 ratio, before bonuses, rather than having a clear cut 2/1 ratio advantage. Over the next couple days I'll post my suggestive unit values for the early part of the game.
quote:
Monarchy does have low war weariness. Check both the quote, and the government description. |
Wow, I'm feeling smart by how many times I've overlooked things.
Thinking about what you said I think that giving Monarchy the same corruption level as Republic might do the trick.
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korn469
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Poetic Justic
Apr 1999
time: 00:32
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techwins,
quote:
Plus I think, when it's easy to obtain a 2/1 att/def advantage, that the human can easily take more advantage of this than the AI could. I just like the idea of having to plan more for a battle when you know it's closer to a 1/1 ratio, before bonuses, rather than having a clear cut 2/1 ratio advantage. |
Here is the values for both the ancient and middle ages land units without any UUs, which we'll worry about later since balancing the core units is imperative.
Warrior 2.1.1 20
Archer 3.1.1 20
Spearman 2.2.1 20
Chariot 3.1.2 30 (wheeled, zoc) horses
Swordsman 4.2.1 30 iron
Horseman 3.1.3 40 (zoc) horses
Pikeman 5.5.1 40
Longbowman 7.2.1 40
Medieval Infantry 8.5.1 50 iron
Knight 8.4.2 60 (zoc) iron, horses
Musketman 11.11.1 60/1
Cavalry 15.6.3 80/1 (zoc) horses, saltpeter
Besides attack, defense, and movement to a lesser extent, hit points and defensive bonuses determines the combat odds. Saying that a swordsman has a 2-1 ratio over a spearman isn't true. First their is the matter of cost. A player can only buy two swordsmen for every three spearmen. Then their is defensive bonuses and hit points. All of this can make the odds of victory vary greatly. I'll rund down a swordsman vs. a spearman. The first number is the chance of the swordsman winning. The second number is the chance of the swordsman not taking any damage.
elite sword vs. reg spear 99.6/19.8
vet sword vs. reg spear 95.7/19.8
reg sword vs. reg spear 82.6/19.8
reg sword vs. vet spear 65.1/8.8
reg sword vs. elite spear 39.3/2.6
vet sword vs. vet spear 87.9/8.8
elite sword vs. vet spear 98.4/8.8
vet sword vs. elite spear 69/2.6
reg sword vs. fort reg spear 65.4/10.7
elite sword vs. fort reg spear 97.5/10.7
elite sword vs. fort elite spear 72.5/0.6
reg sword vs. fort elite spear 16.9/0.6
reg sword vs. fort reg spear in town 50/6.3
elite sword vs. fort reg spear in town 92.7/6.3
elite sword vs. fort elite spear in town 50/0.2
reg sword vs. fort elite spear in town 7.3/0.2
reg sword vs. fort reg spear in city 38/3.9
elite sword vs. fort reg spear in city 85.6/3.9
elite sword vs. fort elite spear in city 32/0.1
reg sword vs. fort elite spear in city 3.2/0.1
all of these percentages comes from the civ3 combat calculator http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3combatcalc.html
So combat between a swordsman and a spearman can range between an almost assured victory for the swordsman to almost certain victory for the spearman. Spearmen can also strike back at swordsmen. A vet spearman attacking a regular swordsman has a 74.6% chance of victory, along with a 6.3% chance of winning without taking damage.
Presenting these statistics doesn't validate my unit values, nor does it torpedo your arguments that I need to change them. I just hope to show that there is much more than just attack and defense values coming into play, and it may have an effect on what values you'd propose. Encouraging combined arms is one of the most important things I'd like to do in the Blitz Mod.
Here's a thought, what if we gave all defenders the zero range bombard, and their bombard value was the same as their defense value? What do you think of that?
I'll change Monarchy's corruption to problematic, making it have the same corruption as republic.
EDIT: i edited my first post to show things i've implemented so far, now i'm down to units, improvements, and natural resources before i release the beta
Last edited by korn469 on 23-11-2003 at 16:40
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TechWins
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Arizona
Apr 2001
time: 22:32
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Unit listing goes in order by these traits:
1) value that doesn't require resources
2) value that has the lowest shield cost
3) unit with the highest potentcy regardless of 1 & 2
I'm going to list all the suggestions I have for each individual unit. I'll order them by 1,2,3. So a value that doesn't require a resource will be the highest in order, then comes shield cost and lastly units with higher potentcy come last. I'm sure you'll be able to tell the order I'm trying to use.
Warrior 1.1.1 10
*Warrior 1.2.1 20
*Warrior 2.1.1 20
Archer 2.1.1 20
*Archer 3.1.1 30
Spearman 1.2.1 20
*Spearman 2.2.1 30
*Spearman 1.3.1 30
Chariot 1.1.2 15 (wheeled) horses
*Chariot 1.1.2 20 (wheeled) horses
*Chariot 2.1.2 30 (wheeled) horses
Horseman 2.1.2 30 (zoc) horses
*2.1.2 25 (zoc) horses
*3.1.2 30 (zoc) horses
Swordsman 3.2.1 30 iron
*3.2.1 35 iron
*3.3.1 40 iron
*4.2.1 40 iron
Pikeman 1.3.1 30
*Pikeman 1.3.1 40
*Pikeman 2.3.1 40
*Pikeman 1.3.1 30 iron
*Pikeman 2.3.1 40 iron
*Pikeman 1.4.1 40 iron
Longbowman 4.1.1 40
*Longbowman 4.2.1 40
*Longbowman 4.1.1 50
*Longbowman 4.2.1 50
*Longbowman 5.1.1 50
Medieval Infantry 4.2.1 40 iron
*Medieval Infantry 3.3.1 40 iron
*Medieval Infantry 4.2.1 50 iron
*Medieval Infantry 3.3.1 50 iron
*Medieval Infantry 4.3.1 60 iron
Knight 4.3.2 60 (zoc) iron, horses
*Knight 4.3.2 70 (zoc) iron, horses
*Knight 4.4.2 70 (zoc) iron, horses
*Knight 5.3.2 70 (zoc) iron, horses
*Knight 6.3.2 80 (zoc) iron, horses
Musketman 1.4.1 50 saltpeter
*Musketman 2.4.1 60 saltpeter
*Musketman 3.4.1 60 saltpeter
*Musketman 3.4.1 65 saltpeter
*Musketman 3.5.1 70 saltpeter
*Musketman 4.5.1 80 saltpeter
*Musketman 3.6.1 80 saltpeter
Cavalry 6.3.3 80 (zoc) horses, saltpeter
*Cavalry 6.3.3 85 (zoc) horses, saltpeter
*Cavalry 7.3.3 85 (zoc) horses, saltpeter
*Cavalry 6.4.3 90 (zoc) horses, saltpeter
*Cavalry 7.3.3 90 (zoc) horses, saltpeter
*Cavalry 7.4.3 90 (zoc) horses, saltpeter
There may be a few more small values that are possible, but for the most part that should cover them. What can be done is decide what level do you want each unit to be at. I think it can be used as a guide to decide which combination of values for each unit is the most balanced. The cost and potentcy of each unit generally increase appropriately. Although. an increase in cost may decrease the potentcy of a unit in a real game. Also, decreasing a unit's potentcy in order to lower its shield cost may decrease the unit's potentcy in a real game. Choosing one option for a unit may force you to choose another for a different unit. Below is a possible combination for all the units in a balanced manner:
Warrior 1.1.1 10
Archer 3.1.1 30
Spearman 1.2.1 20
Chariot 1.1.2 15 (wheeled) horses
Horseman 2.1.2 30 (zoc) horses
Swordsman 3.2.1 30 iron
Pikeman 1.3.1 30
Longbowman 4.1.1 40
Medieval Infantry 3.3.1 40 iron
Knight 5.3.2 70 (zoc) iron, horses
Musketman 3.5.1 70 saltpeter
Cavalry 7.3.3 85 (zoc) horses, saltpeter
That's not an exact combination that might be the best by any means at all. It's still fairly well balanced, and my point was to show you a general idea of where I think the unit's values should range from. When choosing each unit's values it should be down from bottom to top. When deciding the values each unit before it should be taken into consideration along with the production rate of the time, the possibility of having certain resources, and the chance of moving up the unit chart based on technologies ahead, and like you said possible defensive bonuses. However, I still don't think too much emphasis on unit values should be based on defense bonus considering that's exactly what it is a bonus. IMO, I think it has to be a rather precise decision. This isn't to say that you were choosing carefully before, though. I just think that parts of it came out unbalanced.
quote:
Here's a thought, what if we gave all defenders the zero range bombard, and their bombard value was the same as their defense value? What do you think of that? |
That is an interesting idea, but that takes away the bonus of units like the archer and longbowman. I like the realism part of how those units get an initial defense bonus and how most other units don't.
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korn469
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Poetic Justic
Apr 1999
time: 00:32
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Techwins
quote:
Below is a possible combination for all the units in a balanced manner:
Warrior 1.1.1 10
Archer 3.1.1 30
Spearman 1.2.1 20
Chariot 1.1.2 15 (wheeled) horses
Horseman 2.1.2 30 (zoc) horses
Swordsman 3.2.1 30 iron
Pikeman 1.3.1 30
Longbowman 4.1.1 40
Medieval Infantry 3.3.1 40 iron
Knight 5.3.2 70 (zoc) iron, horses
Musketman 3.5.1 70 saltpeter
Cavalry 7.3.3 85 (zoc) horses, saltpeter |
At first glance here's what I'm thinking
1) Even without the increased defensive bonuses of the Blitz Mod, stationary defence looks like the best way to go.
2) The use of combined arms in the ancient age seems to be less potent
3) Comparing middle age units to ancient units, there really isn't much of a difference. This is a biggie for me. Better tech should give players better weapons
However, that's just a first glance reaction. I don't want things to be too defensive. Without proper defenses offensives should proceed along at a fairly good pace. Good units mixes, and making the right moves should be crucial to an effective offensive.
also two other things...
quote:
I still don't think too much emphasis on unit values should be based on defense bonus considering that's exactly what it is a bonus |
quote:
That is an interesting idea, but that takes away the bonus of units like the archer and longbowman. I like the realism part of how those units get an initial defense bonus and how most other units don't. |
I disagree with both of those statements. The fortification bonus is a deliberate action. Setting up a defensive position at the right time in the right place can and should make all of the difference. Actually your statements started making me think about increasing the fortification bonus to 75%. I think that you cannot overlook the significance of defensive unit bonuses(even with the normal civ3 defensive values) when developing unit stats. Otherwise things won't function properly.
Also zero range bombard hasn't existed for two years in Civ3 Conquests just added it, so I think it's a tool that we should use to encourage combined arms. Realism is only a second priority, and to be realistic all ranged units should get the bonus, but I'm not sure if that is good for gameplay. That being said I think its best fit is with defense units not assault or general purpose units. I also like the fact that with my combat values defenders can effectively counter assault units or general purpose units. However, lets try some compromise. For now only worry about ancient units. We'll go one age at a time.
Warriors 2.1.1 15
Warriors are basic attack units. They shouldn't have any special considerations, except that since they are attack units their offense should exceed their defense.
Spearmen 2.3.1 20 (zero range bombard: 3 strength)
Spearmen are basic defensive units. Their defense should exceed their offense, yet their offense should still allow them to effectively counter assault and general purpose units.
Archers 4.1.1 20 (zoc)
Basic assault units. Although they lack a resource requirement, they should have a better attack/shield ratio than swordsmen which are a general purpose unit. Possibly by giving assault units zoc would make them nice additions to a stack.
Swordsmen 5.2.1 30 iron
A tough general purpose unit. These should be the mainstay of an ancient military, but they should need backup from other units. They should be all around robust.
Chariots 3.1.2 30 horses (wheeled, radar)
Good for picking off stragglers. Giving them radar gives them a 2 square vision, so they should make useful scouts.
Horsemen 4.1.3 45 horses (radar)
Again good for picking off stragglers and scouting for the main invasion force.
So tear those numbers apart and lets see what we come up with.
EDIT: I removed a blurb about upping the fortification bonus to 75% with these values there isn't a need for it
Last edited by korn469 on 24-11-2003 at 16:09
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TechWins
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Arizona
Apr 2001
time: 22:32
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Defence should be the best way to go.
I agree. Catapults aren't very effective at all compared to other artillery. Also, the close gap of a.d.m values make this the case. However, in the ancient age should there really be that much combined arms capability?
I agree again that better techs should open up better available weapons. However, if a unit is sort of the last new unit for a while, then it should be balanced among the other units. Such as with Invention and Chivarly those are the last two techs of the early middle ages. It will take some time before you're able to get to Gunpowder. So Longbowman and Knights shouldn't be overly powerful, because it could create some inbalanced.
quote:
I think that you cannot overlook the significance of defensive unit bonuses(even with the normal civ3 defensive values) when developing unit stats. Otherwise things won't function properly |
Defensive bonuses are very significant I agree. However, I don't think that is justification for overdoing attack values. In some instances it might be the right idea, but not with every unit I don't think. From all of my playing it seems rather easy to win a battle when attacking a town/city when you have a 3/2 att/def advantage regardless of all the defensive bonuses. It's not quite as easy with a 4/3 advantage, but it's still effective enough with the right planning. My point is that with the right planning it can be easy as is when attacking let alone giving more of an advantage to the atatcker by altering the unit values in favor of the attacker.
quote:
Also zero range bombard hasn't existed for two years in Civ3 Conquests just added it, so I think it's a tool that we should use to encourage combined arms. Realism is only a second priority, and to be realistic all ranged units should get the bonus, but I'm not sure if that is good for gameplay |
Yeah, I know that it has just been added. I did like your idea of adding it to more units, but I still like the realistic aspect of ranged units getting the bonus. An idea would be to give ranged units a 1-2 bonus, to keep the realism, then give all other units that have the bonus their def value as the bonus, for gameplay purposes.
quote:
Spearmen 2.3.1 20 (zero range bombard: 3 strength) Spearmen are basic defensive units. Their defense should exceed their offense, yet their offense should still allow them to effectively counter assault and general purpose units. |
Hmm I think changing that to 2.2.1 20 (zero range bomard: 2) would better. It still gives them a 1/1 def/att advantage against Warriors and a 2/1 att/def ratio against them as well.
Warriors 2.1.1 15
I think trying out 2.1.1 15 might be a good idea to see how it works, even though, I may have some doubt.
Spearmen 2.2.1 20 (zero range bombard: 2 strength)
They are still a viable defensive unit, especially early on. Then the 2 attack gives them a good attack defense against 1 def units.
Archers 3.1.1 20 (zoc) (zero range bombard: 1 strength)
Still a good attacking unit with a 3/2 advantage over Spearmen. The zoc and zero range bombard gives them an extra edge, too. I think making them 25 shields might be better; I can't decide on that.
Swordsmen 4.2.1 30 iron
Initially I thought they should have a 3 def rating since there needs to be a unit that can defend better than 2 against the 4 attack. But I realized that the civs that are the only ones that have iron will be too powerful. Since Swordsmen can still be taken down by the resourceless Archers they're not overly powerful in that sense. I'm still a little worried about the 2/1 advantage it will have when attacking over all units. It can't hurt to try it out I guess.
Chariots 2.1.2 20 horses (wheeled, radar)
With the radar, 2/1 possible att/def ratio against many units, and 2 movement they will become great units to use to pick off low defence units.
Horsemen 3.1.2 30 horses (radar)
The same as Chariots except with better attack. 3 movement with the radar would only make them too strong.
Also, you have to take into consideration of not giving early units. like the archer, to big of an edge over the warrior since only certain civs get to start out buidling archers right away. I know I wouldn't be happy seeing a big hoard of archers 4.1.1 coming in within 15-20 turns into the game when I still only have warriors 2.1.1. That's one reason why I think the archer should have no higher of a value than 3, which is still a high value for a 1 def to defend against. At any rate certain sacrifices to unit values have to be made. It's a matter of trying to find the right values for the most balanced way. It would be really hard finding a perfectly completely balance between all of the units.
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korn469
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Poetic Justic
Apr 1999
time: 00:32
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Techwins,
Those values looks good to me, I did like a 2.3.1 zero bombard spearman, but 2.2.1 works as well. I think adding zero range bombard to assault units is a good idea as well. 
The only changes I would make is to have chariots cost 25 and horsemen to cost 35.
I'm in complete agreement with you that the middle ages is two seperate era. You have the early middle ages which is like era 2.0, then you have the late middle ages which is like era 2.5. I haven't quite made up my mind about the late middle ages yet, but taking your vales with what I was thinking earlier today how does this sound for the early middle ages.
Pikeman 4.5.1 35 (zero range bombard: 5 strength)
The primary defender of the middle ages. Their attack gives them an offensive edge against all other units besides pikemen, and their defense is the best of the era.
Medieval Infantry 9.4.1 50 iron
Again the mainstain of a middle ages army, they are good defenders and have quite an offensive punch.
Longbowmen 7.1.1 35 (zoc)(zero range bombard: strength 2)
A cheap assault unit, that can dish out more damage per shield than a Medieval Infantry unit. It's low defense and exta abilities make it a good support unit.
Knights 10.3.2 70 horses, iron (radar)
Knights are the masters of the medieval battlefield. They fill both a scout/raider role, and can serve as a primary offensive unit. However, their high cost when coupled with their low defense will make players think twice before relying solely on them in the middle ages.
All in all the Middle ages has a slightly more defensive tilt than the Ancient age, and combined arms is still important.
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18-11-2003 01:28
): High building upkeep is a very interesting idea - 14 gpt for a single building may be way overboard, but I need to think about it. And I need to do some calculations about accumulated culture of bigger vs. smaller empires.
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