19-11-2003 01:55									#1
	Forest+Condenser=Eudaimonia Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Something I have noticed accidentally.

Normally, if you want to build a condensor over a forset square, forest is destroyed and if you forest a condensor square, condensor is destroyed.

However, if you build a condensor in any square and do not farm it, forest can spread into this square without destroying it. Not an entirely unlikely outcome if your bases are surrounded by forsets which is usually the case in the early game.

The fun part is that condensor still provides it's stated benefit of increasing nut output by 50%.

Without tree farms, there is no effect.
With tree farms, forest+condenser generates 3-2-1 instead of 2-2-1.
With hybrid forests, forest+condenser generates 4-2-2 instead of 3-2-2 and working a 4-2-2 square certainly beats crawlering 4 nuts.
Condensers of course work with nut specials as well. so forest+condenser+hybrids+nut special = 7-2-2 (7-2-3 with FM).

This gets my nomination for the best possible terraforming option

I've never really seen it, but I guess by the same logic it may be possible to have a forest+echelon mirror combo?

	19-11-2003 03:11									#2
	Inflate your Upload Space

Not a bad idea, but such antics still pale in comparison to the condenser/farm with crawler trick, especially once you get boreholes, satellites, etc.

1 Farm+Condenser+Crawler supports 2 workers, each of whom can then harvest a borehole, for a net gain of 12 minerals and 12 energy. Of course, you can't have boreholes everywhere, which is where your large-scale forestation can fill in the gaps.

The big advantage of condensers is their ability to bypass early nutrient harvest restrictions.

	19-11-2003 12:05									#3
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I noticed that effect, too, but by the time I could get many of those, I have fungus sprouting all over my empire, and the effort to get condensor-forests is too much compared to straight forests and condensor-farms

	19-11-2003 17:33									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Chaos Theory I noticed that effect, too, but by the time I could get many of those, I have fungus sprouting all over my empire, and the effort to get condensor-forests is too much compared to straight forests and condensor-farms

Not really - build a condensor only on a square you normally would and crawler it for 3nuts instead of 4. Then if forest expands into this square, cash in the crawler and work the square. There is actually less effort required to accomplish this due to lower terraforming time. The only downside is a potential loss of one nutrient which may or may not be important depending on the circumstances.

	20-11-2003 05:43									#5
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Losing 1 out of 4 nutrients is half the benefit of using condensors, and you need to have forests around the condensors if any is to expand into their tiles. That means you sacrifice many potential condensor sites and 1/4 the productivity of the current sites for a modest benefit in the future. I say it's not worthwhile.

	20-11-2003 06:51									#6
	Remove this text

I agree that it is a circumstantial terraforming strategy and there are some costs involved. But consider some merits as well:

(a) having forests around condensers is rarely a problem since that is what you'll probably build the most in the early game
(b) I usually build condensors on nut specials first where condenser will immediately provide 6 nuts (2rainy+2nut special)x1.5=6nuts. Farming this site increases it to 7 nuts, not a substantial difference.
Forest in a nut square yields 3-2-1 prior to tree farms and 4-2-1 with them.
However, forest + condenser + nut special = 4-2-1 before tree farms and 6-2-1 with tree farms which is pretty damn good.
Farming the site is 4 terraforming turns so this one extra nut does not come entirely free and it may be entirely superficious depending on a particular base growth conditions.
(c) Because you spend less time terraforming you can actually build more condensor sites in the same number of t-forming turns
(d) I always build condensers (rather than farms) first anyway since it offers an extra benefit of increasing moisture in surrounding squares
(e) it's an option to consider for certain specialty tiles (rivers, uranium flats) where crawlering nuts is not entirely desirable due to waste of other FOPs.

It's definitely not the ultimate terraforming strategy or something but rather something that may be worthwhile considering.

By the way, if it is possible to accomplish forest+echelon mirror (which I have never really seen but it seems that it should work too) than building echelon mirrors inside the base radius and using farm+solar combo may also be more useful than generally accepted. Ie if one can work an echelon mirror as a normal forest square than building solar collectors on 1000+ elevations tiles may be very much worthwhile.

	25-11-2003 04:42									#7
	Got spare money?

Of course you have to wait if and eventually when the computer decides if to spread the forest

	26-11-2003 09:21									#8
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quote: The big advantage of condensers is their ability to bypass early nutrient harvest restrictions.

You need one of two things to build a condenser in the first place:
1. EcoEng (And you've already got GenSpli - no restrictions)
2. The WP
To build the WP and spend 6 turns making a condenser, you're probably already halfway to EcoEng!

	26-11-2003 10:20									#9
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Hardly. In fact, if you get the WP, you can avoid lifting restrictions and shoot for D:AP or PSA instead, fuelling specialist cities with the nutrients from the condensor-farms

	27-11-2003 02:52									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Enigma_Nova You need one of two things to build a condenser in the first place: 1. EcoEng (And you've already got GenSpli - no restrictions) 2. The WP To build the WP and spend 6 turns making a condenser, you're probably already halfway to EcoEng!

Maybe if you've never played a game not as the University that might be true, but if you're playing Fungboy you'll be building the WP and cranking out condensers long before you'll be EcoEng.

	02-12-2003 08:41									#11
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Enigma_Nova You need one of two things to build a condenser in the first place: 1. EcoEng (And you've already got GenSpli - no restrictions) 2. The WP To build the WP and spend 6 turns making a condenser, you're probably already halfway to EcoEng!

In addition to what Chaos Theory have pointed out, I would say it's most advisable to use groups of formers for such high-turn terraforming activities. There is some time until the bases grow to take advantage of any new improvements after the first two or three, so right after that you can safely gang up two or more formers on a condenser. Actually I always use formers in groups of at least two even if it's for regular terraforming (farms, forests, etc), it's much more efficient IMO.

Of course, building an extra former for such help is always worth the effort .