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BigFree
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Acampo, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:32
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My god folks this is not International Politics, 1BC is not the real UN, this is a game we are playing. Yes, it a big game, but still a game. Sometimes a hardline stance is needed. Even if you still insist on comparing what I said to real life politics I can give you plenty of examples where world leaders have said things that were inflamatory to others. Go back to your history books and see what kind of comments you can find in the exchanges between the US and the USSR. Or even the US and Cuba. Or the Britain and Germany.
When you see something that is wrong, as a leader, sometimes you have to say (or do) what may not feel right or popular but that expresses the sentiment of what your Nation(Team) is feeling. Since it was mostly agreed that that was our sentiment, that's what I did. If given the same situation, I would do it again. I didn't feel that I said anything that the team wasn't feeling. Like donegeal said, why sugar coat it? (BTW, thanks for the support.)
F-P: Now you are saying I'm not allowed to disagree with anyone in Apolyton on any issue and that I'm not allowed to debate in any sort of matter in a "heated" sort of way? Show me where I mistreated my own team mates. I may agrue my point, I may say that what they said is wrong, I may say that They are completely wrong....so what!!! I'm allowed to as is everyone else. Since when is it inappropriate to stand up for a certain position and argue it to the best of your ability? Yes things get a littel heated sometimes, but that's the way it goes. I'm glad for some heated discussions, it shows passion for the game and for the team. I am a vocal and active leader. I don't sit in the background, much of what nye does, and observe and reserve my comments. That's fine for him, that's his style. People knew my style when I was voted into office. Should I change my style all that much because of being voted into office? Or should I stay pretty much the same person because that's who was voted into this position?
Tell me I don't want to win this game. Tell me I don't give 100% towards that goal, albeit in a different route you would supposedly choose.
Togas: GWT put themselves in a negative light. I said they were 'cheating asses' if they didn't replay the turn. It was not a diplomatic situation in my eyes. I was not negotiating for anything. I was not trying to persuade them to side with Apolyton on any in-game issue. It was simply me telling it like it is. They were cheating, in my own opinion. They were already guilty of it, no questions about it, to me. Ask yourself if our in-game friends of CGN and CFC see Apolyton in a negative light now because of my comment. Miccofl expressed surprise that our team was upset with my post. Yes, he knows some were upset because Arnelos told him. :P Do me a favor and ask both of those teams how they feel about the incident and tell me how it really affects us. As for GWT and GCA....they still feel the same. There's nothing we can do or say that will make GWT or GCA feel better towards us now. It's clear to them and everyone else that it's APO/CFC loosely allied with CGN against GCA who's loosely allied with GWT. The only reason it's labeled "loosely" by me is becasue the travel bewtween to two continents is prohibitive. Please list out how each other team will now view us in a negative light because of my comments. And then explain to me how each of them will act in a way that will still help them to win the game despite my comments. You will realize that my comments will have no effect on the outcome of the game. The teams will do what they need to do to try and win, period.
Seperately, I can admit when I'm wrong when I am wrong. It's just that in this case I don't feel that I'm wrong. And Yes, I may even get less votes for this poll if I were to say "I'm sorry, I was wrong, I won't do it again." But, that's not how I feel and I won't lie about it. Look at what I did do however. I went back and editied my post because that's what the FAM wanted. I can respect that. Am I an uncontrolable leader? No, I don't think so. Am I unreasonable? If I don't agree with a majority of the team on a particular issue is that unreasonable? If I don't follow through with what the majority of the teams wants to do on that particular issue, then yes, I would then be unreasonable and unfit for leadership. But, I have not done that, ever.
I hope, out of all this rambling that you can see that I don't see my comments being made in a diplomatic fashion. More so just a person showing his displeasure for GWT's actions. Togas, have seen me work in a diplomatic situations, have you ever been dissatified in that regard?
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dejon
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As I once stated in the RP forum, sometimes I think BF's handle describes his mouth.  However, I have also seen BF behave in a diplomatic and controlled manner under stress.
Referring back to FP's original post:
quote:
Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon
I am officially calling, at this time, for a recall of Bigfree as one of our heads of government on the grounds that his actions are a serious discredit to our team's reputation...
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This was no where close to something that would "seriously discredit" the 'Poly rep. He let off a little steam - that's all.
quote:
Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon
...a major impediment to our foreign relations...
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I strongly doubt this and ask for evidence in this regard. Poly is playing this game with the highest standard of professionalism and diplomatic decorum. I don't think the same can be said for the other teams, and I don't see relations souring from a couple of brisk comments. If anything, we have learned to lower our expectations of the other teams' behaviour, diplomatically and otherwise.
quote:
Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon
... and a significant blockade to positive relations within the team.
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Nonsense. We're mostly veterans of at least a couple of demogames, and we know how easily tempers can flare, and then dissappear, during the course of events.
Apolyton needs citizens with BF's passion and zeal, and to have someone like him as a Consul is only better.
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:32
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quote:
Originally posted by dejon
Apolyton needs citizens with BF's passion and zeal, and to have someone like him as a Consul is only better. |
Yes but it doesn't need those same people to go and loud-mouth whatever comes into their mind in a public forum, not only tarnishing the reputation of an Apolyton Council, our highest and most respected office, but also to the team as a whole.
Tell me, does going off on a rant and insulting other teams demonstrate "passion and zeal" for the good of our team? Will verbally offending others gain us ANYTHING? Absolutely not. I don't see any reason why we should put up with that kind of behaviour, not only in the 1BC forum but during any other diplomatic meeting with other teams. This is pathetic, we are not children, we are mature individuals with dignity and common sense. The last thing we need is to act like a raging bull with others. I can't believe we laugh and curse at people like Goonie who display similar attitudes, yet for some reason think we have some god-given right to do the same. If we are incapable of taking that crap from foreign teams, we should at least have a speck of intelligence to know that they won't put up with our crap too.
I dare anyone to say that calling GWT "cheating asses" will actually get them to stop doing what they did, get them to play the game faster, or get them to like and respect us in-game more. In neither of these cases it has helped, and most likely hurt us, so what is the point? I cannot believe anyone could support someone taking that attitude in a public place.
And for the record, this poll, while reflecting on BigFree's actions as a whole are the direct consequence of that single act. I know there are many who think BF has done a wonderful job so far (and I admit that was the case until the last month or so) but to justify this behavior in the place where our reputation matters most? Truly absolutely ridiculous for a team of this stature. 
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Dominae
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We're not accomplishing anything here.
BigFree has made his stance very clear. Everyone else has clearly stated what he or she thinks about it. There is a CoC pending.
Let's get on with the game and start writing 100-word posts on our strategy instead of how wrong BigFree was to call GWT cheaters.
Dominae
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BigFree
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Acampo, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:32
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MZ: You can stick your very near sighted and heavy handed opinon where the sun don't shine. How dare you compare what I said, in the circumstances in which it was done to what Goonine has ever said or ever will say! You call me "loud mouthed", "pathetic", "childish", "(un)intelligent" and to those that have expressed support for me you have reserved, "absolutely ridiculous." And yet you say I'm the one who calls names and insults others. For the last month or so you have been getting in upity with me for some reason. It has nothing to do with me or my actions in just this last month becasue I am the same person. I don't waffle and I don't behave like a child as you often do. You often lose interest in things that you made prior commitments towards; you often shirk your responsibilities as exampled by forgetting to post chat logs and make sheduled chats with other teams. You have to be told so very often to to play your PBEM's and send them on. If anyone one of us is being childish it's you.
MZ, you have yet to show how Apolyton's reputation was hurt in anyway. You also say nothing about GTW's reputation and continue and repeatedly say that GWT did not cheat in our chat room. You must have a personal grudge against me and your posts clearly indicate such. I made one comment, a very short one, about GWT and yet you say it was a "rant"?!?
You say Apolyton's reputation is tarnished by this one comment...please, you are going so overboard here with your opinions. Calling GWT "cheating asses" put GWT's reputation on the line; either they replayed turn or they are cheating asses, period. I made it clear to them that that was what was on the line for them.
Togas: If it is not clear to you how I will conduct myself in the future concerning such matters then I don't know why I went back and edited my post at 1BC on your request.....I respect what the team wants to do, as a whole. What the team wants overides anything that I want to do. So, to answer you, in case it isn't clear, I will not be making another "sorry cheating asses" or something like it kind of post again without first clearing it with the team with a poll or a check with the FAM department.
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:32
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quote:
Originally posted by BigFree
MZ: You can stick your very near sighted and heavy handed opinon where the sun don't shine. How dare you compare what I said, in the circumstances in which it was done to what Goonine has ever said or ever will say!
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Goonie came to us to push for something he believed in, i.e. a larger compensation for CFC's war effort, which he fealt had been decisive. Har har har. He came with the attitude of first saying things nicely, then when he was said no, started bullying and insulting us. In his mind perhaps, that attutude would somehow make us reconsider since it would be apparent that they meant business. Did that change our minds in any way? Hell no! Au contraire, we had obviously decided to discard his proposal but under no circumstance would we have given in to his ridiculous attitude because it was downright offensive. So, what makes you think that calling GWT 'cheating asses' would have made a difference in the UN case? Absolutely nothing because it's the same thing. Bullying, insulting and loudmouthing people in public does not get what you want. All it gets is people to be more steadfast in their positions, be them right or not (to your eyes).
quote:
You call me "loud mouthed", "pathetic", "childish", "(un)intelligent" and to those that have expressed support for me you have reserved, "absolutely ridiculous." And yet you say I'm the one who calls names and insults others.
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I called your actions that, not you, learn the difference. Saying someone made a stupid decision, for example, does not necessarily imply that person is stupid, just like someone did something smart doesn't imply he's smart either.
quote:
For the last month or so you have been getting in upity with me for some reason. It has nothing to do with me or my actions in just this last month becasue I am the same person. I don't waffle and I don't behave like a child as you often do. You often lose interest in things that you made prior commitments towards; you often shirk your responsibilities as exampled by forgetting to post chat logs and make sheduled chats with other teams. You have to be told so very often to to play your PBEM's and send them on. If anyone one of us is being childish it's you.
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Yeah, out of like countless chat logs posted and countless negotiations done I am suddenly the irresponsible one. As for scheduled chats, yes, today I had too much work to do and missed a chat I had organized with OctavianX at 5 pm EST. The first thing I did when I came back was e-mail them an apology. Unlike you BF, I do make mistakes, and will apologize when I goof instead of trying to endlessly defend the undefendable. And don't even talk about PBEMs because you've been holding up FAM 2 and 3 for like what, 3-4 days now? Finally, if you or anyone else is displeased with my performance in this team as deputy FAM, then go ahead and call a CoC on me, or ask Togas to dismiss me, I can take the heat. And if I have failed in something, please tell me so I can do better next time since I have no intentions of leaving this game nor laying low since I have enjoyed it more than probably anything else this year.
quote:
MZ, you have yet to show how Apolyton's reputation was hurt in anyway. You also say nothing about GTW's reputation and continue and repeatedly say that GWT did not cheat in our chat room. You must have a personal grudge against me and your posts clearly indicate such. I made one comment, a very short one, about GWT and yet you say it was a "rant"?!?
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I truly hope no-one from GWT got to read it, and if they did and it does not affect us then very well. However, just because it might not do any damage does not mean that we should brush it off like that and play on the line hoping that what we say or do does not have repercussions. Fortunately most other teams have done terrible diplomacy, and our mistakes pale in comparison to theirs (GWT is probably the best example of a totally undiplomatic team). Still, that is no excuse. We should not have to go through these things considering how well we've done so far. We should always try to avoid things which MIGHT have negative consequences. If we do things wrong, then lets hope it doesn't hurt us but we cannot afford the luxury of turning a blind eye to these things, when the potential for damage is very much real.
quote:
You say Apolyton's reputation is tarnished by this one comment...please, you are going so overboard here with your opinions. Calling GWT "cheating asses" put GWT's reputation on the line; either they replayed turn or they are cheating asses, period. I made it clear to them that that was what was on the line for them.
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Again, that is YOUR opinion, and you are no-one to dictate what should be clear for them and what was "on the line" for them. If anyone's word has any true validity in this issue it is mongoose, and no-one else, because only he has the power to dicate a wrongdoing. If anyone has a right to call GWT cheaters its him, not you, not me, nor anyone else (sure, we can call them what we want here but not in public).
quote:
Togas: If it is not clear to you how I will conduct myself in the future concerning such matters then I don't know why I went back and edited my post at 1BC on your request.....I respect what the team wants to do, as a whole. What the team wants overides anything that I want to do. So, to answer you, in case it isn't clear, I will not be making another "sorry cheating asses" or something like it kind of post again without first clearing it with the team with a poll or a check with the FAM department. |
Hehe, this was just what I wanted to read...
In this thread both me and Togas have pretty much argued the same thing. Obviously Togas has spoken far more softly and less antagonically than me. Consequently, your responses to my hard-line approach have been equally virulent when contrasted with your semi-apologetic response to Togas.
What does this tell you? That you too are not excempt from taking offensive statements in a negative light. My hard-line statements, (which I know will never convince you) have provoked you standing even more headstrong in your position. Togas' attitude, much more tactfull and consensus-seeking has provoked a more giving-in attitude instead.
Moral of the story? See for yourself in this thread what arrogant and hard-line postures accomplish. Nothing. See what being patient and tactful does. At least a bit more.
-MZ
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BigFree
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Acampo, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:32
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I was not trying to get GWT to do anything. I was letting them know that if they did not replay the turn, they were cheating. mongoose already ruled on that by then, so saying that mongoose was the only one with authority to tell them that is wrong since he already said it and my statements towards them was backed up by that fact.
As far as my repsonse to Togas....it is a little different than my repsonse to you, doea that mean that I feel differntly about anything? No, not really. Just the way it reads, don't try to read anything into it than waht it says. I was no 'apologetic' towards Togas; I reitereated what I felt should have already been clear.
Whether your calling my actions or my words or my stance or whatever, it's still the same to me. You remember Forrest Gump? You remeber the line: "Stupid is as stupid does." A lot of people don't get that line as to it's exact meaning. It means that if someone acts stupidly then they are stupid and also the inverse. So, if you say my actions are insert favorite insult, then you are saying that about me, period. Don't even try to tell me that "loud mouthed" or "pathetic" or "unintelligent" are just actions that I did, in your opinion, in this one sentence I directed at GWT.
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:32
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BigFree,
I must admit that my opinion is rather close to what Togas has stated on this issue. I believe that, contrary to what you have stated, your comments had and have the potential to cause actual harm to Apolyton-GWT relations (even more than might otherwise be the case, something else we differ upon) and furthermore have the potential to be seen as needlessly harsh and insulting to teams even friendly toward us such as CGN and CFC. There were far more conciliatory and/or polite ways to admonish GWT for their behavior while still getting your point across, you simply didn't endeavor to take them.
On a certain level, that's a comendable thing to do. If GWT did, as you insist, purposely attempt to cheat, they needed to get the signal loud and clear that this was not appreciated by other teams and your attempt to be as absolutely clear about the message as possible made it more likely to break the language barrier.
Even then, I think what most of us here on Apolyton object to is the vulgarity in which that message was delivered. I think we all pretty much agree that the central message that you were pissed could have been conveyed without that, something which has the potential to make us look bad and not only to GWT. The FAM has been working hard to foster a reputation of Apolyton being polite and courteous in nearly every situation... good sports, if you will. That is why Master Zen, in particular, seems most upset over this. There was no need for you to put what you said the way you said it.
Now, to be fair, you did change the statement after being asked to do so in chat by Master Zen, Togas, myself, and notyoueither and after Beta had publicly posted that he wanted to take over Apolyton's correspondance with the U.N. because of that comment. With that, I considered this issue largely closed.
The CoC, it seems, is founded upon the basis that this was not an isolated incident in F-P's eyes along with the fear that you would do something like this again in the future while Consul. I think the later of those is the more important, it's that people fear you would do something like this again in the manner you did it that makes them inclined to vote in favor of a CoC against you.
If you want to say that if you see a team cheating in the future, you're going to call it as you see it, that's fine and even commendable on a certain level. I can certainly respect it for its honesty and I agree with you that such a statement CAN be made "out-of-game" and this is not RL where the U.N. is an in-game negotiating body. But that's not the problem, BF. The problem was the entirely unecessary vulgarity of the statement.
I think what would set a lot of minds at ease would be if you could somehow demonstrate that while you fully intend to call things as you see it in the future, you at least would refrain from the type of vulgarity you used this time. That certainly won't convince everyone, as I'm sure many find the mere fact that you were that brutally honest to be the problem, but I think for many that some faith you won't be so explicitly insulting would help.
This doesn't touch upon the other issues F-P raised such as how internal debates are conducted and handled, but there's another two weeks before the next Consul election in which you can attempt make your case on that. I think that for the CoC, it's the vulgarity of your statement that worried and worries people most.
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MrWhereItsAt
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New Year's Resolution: 2005 is the year of Where It's At - come get some.
Nov 2001
time: 17:32
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It's a little early to call the POVs on this. The poll is invalid, remember that, and although some people continued to vote many, such as I, did not, in anticipation of the proper procedure coming up. We can't just oust a Consul - we need a replacement as well. Then we are not given the choice of "this Consul - yes or no?", but "this Consul or this Consul?". Everyone should remember that - if you vote one down, you get the other.
When the polling occurs, judge not only on this problem, but on what BF has done as a Consul as a whole, and weight that up against what the others could do as Consul.
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22-11-2003 00:10
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