19-11-2003 21:30									#1
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Enough is enough. One of the heaviest burdens to bear as a representative in any government is that you must occasionally smile and speak diplomatically in situations where you would rather punch the other guy in the face. That's all well and good, and I appreciate the desire to throw a right hook as much as the next guy, but Counsel Bigfree's actions have gone from moderately undiplomatic to downright inflammatory, both regarding internal affairs and external ones.

I am officially calling, at this time, for a recall of Bigfree as one of our heads of government on the grounds that his actions are a serious discredit to our team's reputation, a major impediment to our foreign relations, and a significant blockade to positive relations within the team.

If this game continues, it will be through patient, calm, mediated thoughts, not needless vulgarity and repeated accusations.

	19-11-2003 21:54									#2
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It is not clear to me what you mean by "BF's actions". Is it the quarrel with some team members on this Forum? Or is something else involved?

Please specify.

edit: you mean "consul", right?

	19-11-2003 22:21									#3
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shouldn't BigFree at least be given the opportunity to respond to such challenges before a vote occurs?

And is it right for this to be an anonymous poll? I think people should be straight up about these matters and not hide behind an invisible yes or no click.

edit: and this is not to say which way I would vote on such matters, I haven't made up my mind yet.

	19-11-2003 22:43									#4
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See the Time Counter Thread at 1BC starting at page 2 and the United Nations Forum Thread for more information.

E_T

	19-11-2003 22:46									#5
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I'm going to hold my vote at this time, atleast until BF has some responce to this matter.

Although, I would like to see that he makes a public apology at 1BC, to both GCA and GWT.

E_T

	19-11-2003 23:01									#6
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Shouldn't BigFree at least be given the opportunity to respond to such challenges before a vote occurs?

Yes.

quote: And is it right for this to be an anonymous poll?

Yes. Part of the reason we've never had a CoC (all our past Consuls have stepped down) is the social pressure of not hurting anyone's feelings. As long as everyone knows what the issues that led up to the CoC, I see nothing wrong (and everything right) in making the vote anonymous.

Let's go back to the MrWhereItsAt fiasco (bear with me). I called a CoC because I felt he was not pulling his weight as a Consul. Several other Consuls, including MrWhereItsAt himself, publicly shot down the CoC, and the vote never even took place. Most of "the people" did not know what to think, but given heavy pressure by high-ups to keep MrWhereItsAt in office, it was almost considered bad form to call the CoC in the first place (much less post the actual poll!). This was not a healthy state of affairs for our government. Thankfully MrWhereItsAt became a lot more active after that and ended up being a exemplary Consul.

My simple point is that everyone seems to be squeamish about CoCs. Ideally one person (here, Fried-Psitalon) would call the CoC, giving reasons; the Consul in question would have one post to defend him- or herself; and then the everyone else would vote anonymously in a poll. Are we not still sort of a democracy?

Note that all this has nothing to do with BigFree. I need to learn more about the situation before forming an opinion on that.


Dominae

	19-11-2003 23:28									#7
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those are good points Dominae.


what are the rules on the removal? majority? 2/3 voters

	20-11-2003 00:01									#8
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I have reponded about this topic in general and to the CoC here:

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...588#post2497588

Edit: BTW, if the team votes to CoC me, then I will quit the ISDG. My opinon about cheating won't change and neither will my comments about it.

Last edited by BigFree on 20-11-2003 at 00:13

	20-11-2003 01:27									#9
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How very like GWT of you. They won't accept the ruling, they'll quit, and now you...

	20-11-2003 02:32									#10
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BigFree,

It wasn't your stance on the issue that people objected to. It was the manner in which you chose to state your position in a public forum. It wasn't that what you said was *wrong* per se, but rather that it was extremely undiplomatic. Master Zen put it well in the other thread.

-Arrian

p.s. I haven't voted yet... and frankly I may not at all, since I'm relatively new to the team and haven't put in nearly as much effort as others, no doubt including you.

	20-11-2003 02:41									#11
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel And is it right for this to be an anonymous poll? I think people should be straight up about these matters and not hide behind an invisible yes or no click.

The reasoning behind a CoC is to obtain the sentiments of the team as a whole, not of individuals. A CoC that succeeds reflects the fact that the team, in the aggregate, voted to recall that person. The more vocal people might give their reasons for and against, but that does not mean everyone is required to.

That being said, I am inclined to think BF during the last month or two has been experiencing some sort of "burnout". Being a consul is not an easy job and after so many months it is bound to end up stressful. This of course does not excuse any irresponsible behaviour, and I'm sorry to say that some of BF's actions during this time have been terribly disappointing, especially since I felt he had done a fantastic job before.

I still don't know what to vote since elections are just 2-3 weeks away and it is his term that is up. However, whether this CoC succeeds or not, it should be a pretty good indicator of things that the people find unsatisfactory in our leadership, and should be a good lesson for consuls to come.

	20-11-2003 02:42									#12
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I voted no not because I necessarily oppose the CoC but because I want more time for calmer discussion.

	20-11-2003 03:10									#13
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I read his comments, and I'm voting no.

I do not agree with how he said what he said, but I agree with the sentiment. In any case, since he edited the insulting part out on his own, then I don't see a need to CoC him. I do think an apology for the "sorry cheating asses" part is in order though.

Anyways, If this does pass, then I hope you at least reconsider quitting over it BigFree. It sets a very sour precedent for the future if the first person CoC'd without agreeing to it first, quits over it

	20-11-2003 04:39									#14
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I voted no.

	20-11-2003 04:52									#15
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uhhh... guys

quote: The Senate has the power to take a proposal for Change of Command (CoC). a. Any Senator may proclaim a Change of Command proposal on an elected official. b. The Senator must state the elected official he is intending to remove from office in the first post - this is called the 'initial proposal'. c. During 48 hours after the initial proposal, any number of candidates may apply for the job. The Senator himself may or may not apply. d. After the first 48 hours, but within 72 hours, the Senator must organize a vote - this is called the 'replacement proposal'. If this vote is not organized within this time, the CoC is nulled. e. The replacement proposal vote must be open for 72 hours. f. The replacement proposal vote must include all candidates, plus the person who was the subject of the initial proposal, unless this person indicates otherwise. g. The CoC vote shall be done with a preferential ballot. The person with the highest outcome wins the election. h. An elected official may only propose a Change of Command vote on himself, and not on another one. i. Any elected official may not be the subject of a CoC for five turns after his election.

We need to have 48h for candidates to come forward then we have a vote (if BF wins then the CoC is defeated)

	20-11-2003 05:02									#16
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We should probably open a new thread for the applications and the real initial proposal (which FP did correctly, there should not be a vote here though), unless we just want to use this one for applications/discussion.

	20-11-2003 05:29									#17
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Treat this as the announcement.
The vote on this thread is invalid however.

Either open a new thread calling for replacements or use this one. I dont think it matters.

	20-11-2003 08:19									#18
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Very good point.

Since we're all very new to the CoC idea, guess we needed to go back and read about how it's really supposed to be done.

F-P's made the "Initial Proposal" on 11/19.

During the following 48 hours, anyone who wants to be Consul says so.

After that period of time is over there is 24 hours to start a "Replacement Vote" which includes all of the candidates and BigFree.


Perhaps we should use this thread to see if anyone actually wants BigFree's job.

Trip?

--Togas

	20-11-2003 08:40									#19
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I would close the poll, as it is premature, yet I don't have any power to do so without closing the thread itself (and I supposedly shouldn't even have the power at all!). As this needs to be seen by all members of the team, suffice to start a separate nominations thread for potential replacements.

quote: If we are going to do this damn silly thing, at least don't do it in this damn silly way

We are going to do this to the letter, or not at all.

	20-11-2003 09:43									#20
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I would like to draw everyone's attention to this quote from our oh-so-magnificent Constitution:

quote: If a Change of Command (CoC) is successfully exercised against a sitting Consul, the citizen who becomes Consul will fill that Consul position until the next scheduled election for the position rather than receiving his own 3-month term from the date of the CoC.

Thus, if someone replaces BF in an election held for three days from Friday (when nominations end), they will be Consul for about 10 days before new nominations and another election for the same position is held anyway.

I ask myself what the point of all this is, but we have to go through with this rigmarole.

	20-11-2003 11:03									#21
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If you don't think there's a point, then vote for Bigfree. I for one don't particularly want to risk another day of "Bigfree Diplomacy." Sorry if that inconveniences you. Looks like 10 people think there is in fact a point, though, maybe more?

	20-11-2003 12:51									#22
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I was not conducting Diplomacy. If you knew how to seperate a discussion about GWT cheating/quiting and in-game Diplomacy you'd then know the difference. Yes I'm a Consul of Apolyton, that does not meant that I was conducting Diplomacy at the 1BC boards. I was merely expressing my feelings about what has transpired. Are only Consuls allowed to post there? No, many other team members have posted there as well. So don't tell me about your dislike of "BigFree Diplomacy" because that was not it. If you ever read any of the chat logs where I DID conduct Diplomacy, you'd see I have done a very good job for our team over the months.

Also, isn't this more about a punitive action than it is to prevent more harm in the future, if my post was sooo harmful? Anyone can post there, regardless of team position.


I was not invited to GWT's homeland where I proceded to insult them. This is not real life. GWT was saying that they were either going to continue cheating or quit the game. I said to either not cheat or quit the game becasue they are cheaters. I still stand behind what I said. GWT does not need "kid gloves" on this one. It was a serious issue about them ignoring an official ruling and threatening to quit becasue they no longer feel like owning up to the pledge they took. Yes, my remark was inflamatory. It was meant to be. GWT's position is ludicrous and no where near reasonable.

I also still stand behind quiting this game if the whole of the Apolyton ISDG team is against standing up to cheating the way I did with GWT. If this team is more worried about what we could we possibly gain from GWT in-game than the fact that GWT is willing to cheat or even quit over not being allowed to cheat then I don't want to be a part of it.

	20-11-2003 13:03									#23
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BF, as a Consul you are never not conducting diplomacy whenever you interact with anyone from any other team. We are the leaders. How else are people supposed to take us?

I acknowledge that you have strong feelings on this issue. As do I. However, we occupy positions of responsibility and are not therefore free to go off as individuals without reprecussions.

If my personal interests were ever to make me come into conflict with the team's interests, then it would be time for me to make a decision as to whether my own interests were important enough for me to step aside and no longer occupy the position I do for the team. If I decided that the team's interests were worth continuing, then I would conduct myself with respect for the interests of the team.

	20-11-2003 13:25									#24
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How much interest does the team have in another that cheats?

The question of whether they cheated or not is a fact, they did. I felt it necessary to call them on that. Also, I felt like most people on this team also felt GWT was cheating and acting so childish when they threatened to quit. I did not think my comments were too far off from how the team, as a whole, felt. Now, how that carries over to "in-game" I am clueless, because it should not. Each team will still do, or try to do whatever it is they think will help them win this game.

Might there be some "talk" about my comment? I don't think so. GWT has not even commented on it, they might, I don't know. Perhaps they see it as I do, a remark made to tell them to either replay the turn or quit the game. Did it damage our reputation with GWT? Isn't it a more important question: How is GWT's reputation with us? Are ever going to side with a team that favors cheating and using exploits to their advantage over an opponent? To me, GWT's rep is already shot all to hell.

The way things are going now, in-game, I don't see us allying with them at all. Hell, we agreed to a complete tech embargo with CGN against GWT. That will do alot for GWT's mood against us more than the comment I made at 1BC. My comment has little weight on how they play the game in terms of warfare and economiccs; but, us embargoing them certainly will raise their ire.

	20-11-2003 21:33									#25
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The interests of the team is that the Consuls Represent the team in a manner that is considered to be of an appropriate behavior. The FAM are also expected to behave the same way, BUT they have also not been placed in a position of leadership, like the Consuls have.

Now, if you want to quit the game over this, that's fine, but it would be as childish of a reaction as you are claiming in GWT. We all don't want you to leave, but a large number of us do think that you are suffering from burnout. And I fully understand that position, I was there from the SPDG for 3 terms in that government. I had needed to take a break when I was done. So, you can leave anytime, but we all wish that you would stay.

E_T

	21-11-2003 12:27									#26
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I would quit because I see this as me standing up and saying what I think. I do not think we should hide our thoughts on this matter. I did not and do not consider what I did as inappropriate. GWt had that and even more coming to them for chaeting in the first place. I can't understand why some of you are taking what they did so lighlty. They knew it was a cheat, they had previously replayed a turn in which they used the same cheat. They were told to replay it back then, and they did. So,m they knew it was not allowed, precendent was set. But, they did it again, and they were caught again. GWT is cheating, the only reason they did not get away with it is because CGN caught onto it. Why does GWT even get to stay in this game? They were caught cheating!! How many chances do they get? It seems those that are voting against me are saying that GWT can have as many chances as they want, but that I have to go at the first comment I make that they think is inapproriate. F-P made a comment before about "BigFree Diplomacy"...do me a favor, show me another example of where this so called inflamatory/insulting Diplomacy took place and furthermore show me where it has hurt our team? Show me where it has hurt Apolyton's reputation.

GWT's reputation is the one that should be shot all to hell.

I only edited my comments at 1BC out of courtesy to the FAM and those that asked for me to do so.

Burnout? Whatever...that's just gives you a good excuse to go along with this ridiculous poll. Nice to see you want to take my spot.

	21-11-2003 16:22									#27
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Excuse me, but if you read the top line again, your foreign relations policies are one of several reasons I called this CoC. Your treatment of those who disagree with your policies internally, as well as your treatment (and desired treatment) of other nations in discussion of foreign policy recently were major factors as well.

I don't care if it's burnout, quite frankly, and the "Cheating ass" incident was the final straw on a camel's back. Your methods of moderation, mediation, and consideration are all unacceptable in a leader to me- and though, apparently, we are in the minority, at least 10 others. So it's not so ridiculous (as you've called it) or stupid (as someone else implied in another thread) after all.

Last edited by Fried-Psitalon on 21-11-2003 at 16:35

	21-11-2003 20:21									#28
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God I love our Constution! Look at this! Character assinations, mud slinging. Even Party Politics (to a small and as yet unsolidified degree). Who came up with this stuff?



This is percicly how and why the CoC was implemented. If people were unhappy with the way things were going or being done, then something needed to happen. This is what the end result is. And I am very thankful that it is there and am actually glad to see it in action. It is our living document.

BTW, I voted for BF because sometimes, harsh things need to be said. No sugar coating or political correctness. We need Consuls and leadership with balls to say what needs to be said. We have that with BF.

	21-11-2003 22:30									#29
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree I would quit because I see this as me standing up and saying what I think. I do not think we should hide our thoughts on this matter. I did not and do not consider what I did as inappropriate.

BigFree, my friend, take some time to digest what many of us are saying. Don't take a hardline stance on this issue or you're going to merely help the case against yourself.

This isn't about GWT or their cheating. None of us are happy with their behavior or attitude and all of us whole-heartedly agree with you about them. Just take a look at MJW's most recent poll on the issue. It's unanimous.

This IS about, however, how the people of Apolyton expect our leaders to act in public. It's also how the FAM needs our leaders to act in public.

You can't post inflamatory messages and insults, period. Deserving or not, it's undiplomatic and if any of the FAM staff did that and took a "I did nothing wrong" stance I'd dismiss them.

I've made mistakes in the past myself. We all have. If you can swallow that and swallow a little pride I think the team will respect you more for it.

Seriously. Don't try to make this a personal attack or somesort of misguided defense of GWT. It's not. It's simply about tact and restraint in public and realizing that you represent Apolyton when you speak, and that Apolyton doesn't want to be represented in a negative way.

--Togas

	21-11-2003 23:18									#30
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As seems normal, Togas has hit the nail on the head.