20-11-2003 00:39									#1
	Hullo fellas Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Hullo chaps

First, thanks to all the people who made those guides and great threads in the "Must Read Threads" bit. Civ 3 is great for me because it doesn't go into all that silly science fiction nonsense. Trouble is my Civ3 scoreboard reads "Diplomatic - Lost", "Military - Lost", "Rank - Lost" and so on and so on, for ages, and Chieftain is so easy that it's dull. Anyway I put all this down to being completely stupid. It's not as if I'm new at this, I played Civ1 and 2, and Alpha Centauri (hated it, what a chore) and CTP1 was OK.

Anyway just some quick questions;
Is automating your workers ever a good idea?
What about automating your citizens' moods?
Can a leader be created from a defending unit, or does it have to be an attacking unit?

Buhbye
Ian

Last edited by Twelvebottoms on 21-11-2003 at 11:35

	20-11-2003 01:12									#2
	Re: Hullo fellas Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Twelvebottoms Is automating your workers ever a good idea? What about automating your citizens' moods?

If you use the governor to automate these things it can speed up the game, however the AI's idea of optimal resource allocation within city radius when adjusting citizen moods and AI's decision on best usage of workers may not match your own. I prefer to manage my moods and workers manually. One exception is during periods of anarchy I will allow gov. to manage moods until anarchy has ended.

quote: Can a leader be created from a defending unit, or does it have to be an attacking unit?

I've seen the AI get a leader after I've attacked him. It hasnt happened for me yet.

	20-11-2003 01:23									#3
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Thanks, the best thing about a city governer managing the moods seems to be that there is never civil disorder (as far as I can see on Regent) and whether there are scientist, taxmen or Elvis depends on the science and luxury sliders (still working out that mathematical gubbins).

I guess I'd learn more if I manually controlled workers... just got to stop being lazy.

Well I've played about 10 games of civ3 so far (won only 1) and never seen an elite produce a great leader while defending, which is either very unlucky or The Rule.

Thanks

Last edited by Twelvebottoms on 21-11-2003 at 11:40

	20-11-2003 01:25									#4
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Automating workers is a terrible idea. They run around, backwards and forwards, and never do things in the right order. If you want it done right do it yourself.

Governors are mostly OK for citizen moods but not anything else. I use this a lot and manage city growth by managing all my workers so that I can limit how much surplus food a city has.

Yes you can get great leaders from defending units. The problem is that if the attacker has more units and keeps coming your GL can get killed before you can use him.

Your golden age can also be triggered if your UU wins a defensive battle. Nice if you want it, not nice if you only have three cities and are still under a despotism government.

	20-11-2003 01:34									#5
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV Your golden age can also be triggered if your UU wins a defensive battle. Nice if you want it, not nice if you only have three cities and are still under a despotism government.

That's happened to me often. I don't think I've had a timely golden age yet

	20-11-2003 01:45									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Twelvebottoms That's happened to me often. I don't think I've had a timely golden age yet

Me neither. It's hard because even if you do everything you can to avoid war someone always picks a fight with you. If you have an ancient UU and he's defending a city and wins..........

	20-11-2003 01:56									#7
	Tired of ads?

I end up with huge number of captured workers during a game, and this is after having built quite a few. There comes a certain point where I automate them in order not to have to deal with each one individually. That said, I don’t think I’ve automated a single worker before the end of the Ancient Age, and as often than not, much later.

	20-11-2003 02:02									#8
	Re: Hullo fellas Suffering from ads?

My 2 pence:

quote: Originally posted by Twelvebottoms Is automating your workers ever a good idea?

In practice I never automate Workers, because:
1) they can be tremendously useful when they develop what you need developed (i.e. specific instructions), and
2) they can and do screw things up royally when automated

I'd rather turn them into citizens (or even radar towers) than automate them and see my mines irrigated!

quote: Originally posted by Twelvebottoms What about automating your citizens' moods?

Useful as a time-saver only. There are few times when the governor can do things more effectively than a player can, unless the player lacks the time or desire to micromanage.

quote: Originally posted by Twelvebottoms Can a leader be created from a defending unit, or does it have to be an attacking unit?

Any victorious elite unit can generate a Great Leader. Defending ones are vulnerable to follow-on attacks though, so you may never see one that is generated in an earlier battle.
There are a number of good threads on 'Poly that spell out the probabilities of generating a Great Leader... they can be quite rare if your Civ does not have a Military trait.

A final thought: In a large-number-of-turns game like Civ one winning strategy is to gain some small advantage over your opponents every turn; this leads to a big cumulative advantage over many turns. One way to gain an incremental advantage every turn is to manually manage your towns to squeeze those extra few shields or gold out of your towns each turn - this leads to earlier improvements, troops, techs, etc. Thoughtful direct management should always add up to better production than a governor will give you.

Best of luck, bvc

	20-11-2003 02:25									#9
	Put an end to popups!

Thanks guys. I suppose I'm going to have to slog it out and make the mistakes until Knowing What To Do will become second nature, a bit like in my sim racing in Grand Prix Legends etc. Also I'll try a militaristic civ, At the moment I'm leaning towards religious / industrious.

	20-11-2003 02:57									#10
	Re: Hullo fellas Get a bigger avatar today!

I'll add my $0.02 as well:

quote: Originally posted by Twelvebottoms Anyway just some quick questions; Is automating your workers ever a good idea?

Generally no. I used to automate my workers at the time of RRs. Then I began automating workers after my RRs were all completed (i.e., for pollution control, mainly). Now I pretty much never automate at all -- before RRs I want to direct which tiles get improved when, and which forests get chopped at which times. With Steam Power, I want to lay rails according to my priorities. After RRs, I want to be able to change tile improvements as appropriate (i.e., mayvbe a city requires a little less food and I can mine over some current irrigation). Once the empire is up and stable, I just leave workers in various sized stacks to deal with pollution, in each case stacks of the right size to deal with pollution in one turn, regardless of the terrain hit.

Automating will do less harm the later in the game you do it -- and you should probably be sure to use SHFT-A automation which automates workers but orders them not to change existing improvements, otherwise the automation will send workers to irrigate over your mines, even in cities without any need for food.

quote: What about automating your citizens' moods?

Much less harmful than automated workers. I did this pretty frequently in PTW, conscious that I was giving away a relatively small amount of gold or science beakers available to me if I managed each city but happily doing so for the ease of never worrying about moods. With C3C, I am finding that the greater power of the old specialists, and more importantly the power of the new specialists, means I am managing almost every city myself -- I just feel that the pendulum has swung far enough for me that I have more to lose by automating than I have to gain with ease of use / less micromanagement.

quote: Can a leader be created from a defending unit, or does it have to be an attacking unit?

bvoncranium answered this, but I can add the exact probabilities. Leader-eligible units on the atack have a 1/16 chance of generating a leader, increased to a 1/12 chance if you've built the Heroic Epic small wonder. On defense the odds are halved: 1/32 and 1/24, repsectively. I presume those odds haven't changed with C3C. C3C introduced the concept of a scientific great leader which can be generated each time you are the first to "discover" a technology. Reportedly the chances for an SGL are 3% for most civs, 5% for scientific civs.

Catt

	20-11-2003 03:34									#11
	Inflate your Upload Space

I tend to do a bit of both, if i playing on a world with lots of jungle. i will atuo (clear jungle) some workers to handle that to reduce the chances of disease, AS i complete my road and then rail network . I will slowly automate more and more workers. Always leaving enough to work on new citys as they built . I only ever do SHIFT A auto as well so as not to change work already done.

Eventually everything will be either mined/Rail or irrigated/rail depending on needs.

I leave my workers the nauto to keep pollutino under control.

I usually end up with well over 100 workers by game end.

	20-11-2003 03:47									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Oh, and even if you do automate, use Shift-A as Catt noted above. And take them out of automation before you go to war. While a good number flee to cities to avoid attack, some just don’t seem to understand that they are in harm’s way and get snatched up by fast movers. It is quite aggravating to end up yelling in vain at some idiot worker who is moving in an inexplicably dangerous path along a hostile border.

	20-11-2003 06:05									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

TB, you're original questions have been well answered. NOW, let's get to the core issue, making you a kick-butt Civer.

First off, post a save from around 1000BC, and perhaps another from 10AD.

Next, I'd like you to try a new game as the Egyptians. Some of the new civs in C3C may actually be better, but Egypt is the civ most of the posters here are most familiar with and feel is the best overall, especially for newer players.

Next, a couple of questions:

1. How far apart are you placing your cities?
2. How many Workers do you have per city, especially in the early game (say, before 8-10 cities)?

	20-11-2003 07:49									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hey wait a minute, I thought China was the civ most were familar with?

	20-11-2003 11:32									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Blimey, I didn't know about shift-A, will only use that if I really need to automate after building road, rail, mines and essential irrigation, from now on.

Theseus thanks, I'll get round to posting a savegame with Egypt at those times. I've got standard Civ3 with latest patch, by the way.

Well, I can't see much difference with my placement of cities between myself and the AI, although they seem to be able to move a spearman with settler into every nook and cranny annoyingly quickly. Perhaps I am just not maximising as best I can in the very ancient stage of the game.

I've been having about 4-5 workers at the stage of 8-10 cities, on average I think.

At the very beginning of the game I leave my city exposed and send the knuckle-dragger off up mountains looking for goodie huts, I figure that it's worth the risk

	20-11-2003 11:47									#16
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

need more workers me thinks.. 4 -5 just not enough..

i usually churn out my settlers and if near an ai a defender too. then a worker for every city minimum. usually i average 2-3 workers per city and can match the settler development of ai pretty well.

I live with the fact for early game the ai may be ahead tech/pop wise, but usually cach them up by middle to late ages of game.

	20-11-2003 16:05									#17
	Inflate your Upload Space

Minimum one worker per city. Later you can use them to boost city populations if you have captured enough slave workers to replace them.

My first three builds are always warrior-warrior-warrior or scout-warrior-warrior and then a settler. That gives you at least one unit to explore with and a warrior to protect each of your first 2 cities. You won't get enough growth to build a settler any sooner without an exceptionally good starting position anyway.

Try the Japanese as an easy civ to learn with. Militaristic and Religious are strong and complementary traits and the Samurai can give you a GA at a very good time.

	20-11-2003 21:59									#18
	Support Apolyton

Heh, Japanese are the only Civ that I've won with, in my only Chieftain game.

Here's the save from a Regent-Egypt-Standard map at 925BC. My cities are a little bit spread out and badly defended, but I've acquired some technologies and gold from barbarians, and tried to claim the resources early. There's a risky incense settlement going on at the bottom, and the other AI civs like me. There's quite a few mistakes that had been made, and I don't have as many workers as I'd like.

Attachment: twelvebottoms of the egyptians, 925 bc.zip
This has been downloaded 8 time(s).

	21-11-2003 02:34									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I think I'm doomed...

	21-11-2003 03:24									#20
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I think you might have heard this before but

1) your cities are too far apart
and
2) you don't have enough workers.

These are still the main problems. If you solve those early, you'll be in a better position by this stage.

	21-11-2003 03:35									#21
	Support Apolyton

Yep... I sorted out the workers situation and had more cities closer by 10AD, but of course by then it was too late and had some greedy AI knocking at my door. I'll start another new game, maybe this time I'll make it to the Industrial age with a half-decent civilization.

	21-11-2003 04:46									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Aloha! And welcome to Apolyton; Twelvebottoms (great name BTW!)

The answer to worker automation is well covered here, but let me add a few comments to help you along. In CIV 3 the fundamental basis for power is the city. The fundemental way to make cities to be productive is to improve tiles. This means that you need workers! I consider 1 worker per city to be an absolute minimum in order to make a civilization productive (more if you wish to connect your cities )

When in REX phase, pop out a worker right after a settler, If you need to wait to get up to size 2 then pop out a good (but cheap) defender before the worker.

	21-11-2003 04:47									#23
	Got spare money?

quote: usually i average 2-3 workers per city and can match the settler development of ai pretty well.

That is too much IMO, especially for an industrious Civ, don't forget that every tile that has been improved but is not worked on is quite expensive, because it means that, you should have waited to build that worker and thus would have had a bigger income and production.
-
I even often go something like warrior- warrior - granary - settler.
A big capital is very powerfull even if it means slower initial slower growth.

	21-11-2003 05:56									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Aloha Mad, friendly place here, eh?

Here's my current game at 10AD.
I can't see where to go from here besides war. I only have 1 luxury (6 wine) and am on the verge of linking trade to the mainland (I don't think the AI have any harbours). I don't see how the AI can expand, build an army, and still be so quick to discover advances. Luckily Ghandi swapped me 4 advances for 1, and I'm about equal in the world. Also, the japs (red) have their cities so far apart that they're way behind the rest of us. Plus I hate having to switch from Great Library with 95% of the shields to poxy marketplace. Sigh.

cheers

	21-11-2003 05:57									#25
	Support Apolyton

(ahem)
PS I'll search the site glossary for "REX"

Attachment: something.jpg
This has been downloaded 136 time(s).

Last edited by Twelvebottoms on 21-11-2003 at 06:03

	21-11-2003 07:39									#26
	Increase Your PM Length

Ever thought of re-starting for better conditions?

Some quick thoughts from the screenshot:
* I typically irrigate plains.
* How many 'worked' tiles does Tenochitlan have access to use? THat's sort of the point... maximizing the tiles, hopefully the best tiles, actually being used.
* That's a neat galley trick you have going between the homeland and the NW island.
* Quite the builder, eh? Come to the Dark Side.

	21-11-2003 09:58									#27
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I've just had a golden age and acquired Leonardo's, and Bach's, oh yeah and the Sistene Chapel. I've built Cathedrals everywhere and am about to set off in search of New World (Played Colonization?) I've culture flipped 2 chinese cities (including Shanghai) but Gandhi's gone totally bonanza; he's weakened Mao and is currently obliterating Japan, causing Emperor Tamagotchi to demand that I give him some techs (?) I said "prprprp" to him. I've got loads of Pikemen and Gandhi's being nice so far.

- Irrigate plains, eh?

- Tenochtitlan doesn't seem to complain about enough tiles, but a couple other cities do

- If I hadn't been able to get to the mainland with a galley, I wouldn't have bothered continuing

- Well when you're in a corner you can either build or fight - after I got some juicy land from the first culture flip, Mohandas and Mao went to war, and I wussed out despite starting to amass horsemen in the hills. Just wanted to explore the culture side of the game I suppose.

PS another question, what would happen if I built the UN, but wasn't elected Sec. General? Game over?

Another PS: Those two cities on the left that are very close together are what caused Shanghai to flip with 6 happy chinese people in it. I've now "cultured" loads of land on that side and I border Beijing.

Attachment: tb-in-a-corner.jpg
This has been downloaded 127 time(s).

Last edited by Twelvebottoms on 21-11-2003 at 11:57

	21-11-2003 15:38									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Nothing wrong with being a builder, not at all. But there are some here who builds for the sake of having a strong industrial/scientific/commercial foundation for a supreme war machine.

Prepare for war, find a target, attack, get others to join, don't stop until he cries uncle, make peace, reap the rewards, find another victim. Rinse and repeat. Don't forget to keep your empire in good shape.

Join the Dark Side

	21-11-2003 19:52									#29
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Oh I want to, believe me. As soon as I get enough cavalry or something, It's clobberin' time.

	21-11-2003 21:04									#30
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

My suggestion twelvebuttom, is to build your FP IN Taeyo and take a bite out of the Chinese and the Iroquois.

Not sure what difficulty you're playing, but your empire is far too small, even for a relatively peaceful builder game, or a machiavellian type manipulation game as I prefer to play them.